Ferrari now just 4pts behind merc in the constructors!

Feels like they have the momentum, too

Never underestimate Ferraris ability the screw up from a winning position, never mind whilst chasing…

I’ve ignored the comments, as I’m watching the replay much later, but I’m dismayed at Verstappens bullying tactics and contempt for the penalties, what an ugly arrogant character he is.

Not sure if it was here or elsewhere on YouTube, but there’s an analysis of his overtaking style which is to bully the opponent to the outside of a corner off the line so they are forced to concede.  It may be within the rules, but its insecure man school bully type stuff.  Horner & Verstappen are so much match for each other.

It may be within the rules, but its insecure man school bully type stuff.

Much as I hate to admit it, it’s what Senna did. ‘I’m putting my car here and carrying on regardless, it’s up to you if we crash’.

And whilst I’m far from a Max fan, that one looked like a turn 1 mistake to me, rather than a deliberate run off the road.

No chance, pretty much every slow to mid speed corner overtake he makes is like that. Send it up the inside then run the other guy outside.

Tbf he’s now come out and said the penalty was fair cos he was sliding out on the dirty track

It was the “send them my regards” comment intended for the stewards that had me.   Disrespectful and arrogant.  There’s no way Russell caused that crash either, Verstappen was very wide on the apex to force Russell to stall, just like he normally does.  Russell was off the track in the run off area, his choice was to turn back in or head straight for the barriers.

Anyway…  

Russell has admitted it was his fault, he didn’t see max and took the full blame for it.

There’s no way Russell caused that crash either, Verstappen was very wide on the apex to force Russell to stall, just like he normally does. Russell was off the track in the run off area, his choice was to turn back in or head straight for the barriers.

LOL, are you blind?

Russell has admitted it was his fault

Another driver in Max’s situation may have backed out when they realised George hadn’t seen them, or wouldn’t have risked it in the first place.

The way he does it, it’s always gonna be the other drivers fault if it goes wrong.

Isnt that what most drivers do? Block passes to get the other driver concede. Seems that being an F1 world champion gives them the  privilege. Pretty sure Senna, Hamilton, Schumacher have all done this at some point in their careers.

The way he does it, it’s always gonna be the other drivers fault if it goes wrong.

So not only has Max made it look like somebody else’s fault, he’s even managed to make another GP driver think it’s his own fault. That’s quite some going. Is there really no end to the infamy this man is capable of? 🙄

I’m not saying that. He puts his car in a position where the other driver has to brake & pull out, or crash. George didn’t see him, so he didn’t brake, therefore the crash was his fault.

He relies as much on other people taking avoiding action, because they want to stay in the race, as he does on his own ability/speed. That’s why it was so close amd action packed when Hamilton had a competitive car, because he wouldn’t give way anything like as much.

Silverstone and Monza 21 cases in point but there’s plenty of other examples

He puts his car in a position where the other driver has to brake & pull out, or crash.

I think that’s known as an overtaking manoeuvre 

It possible to overtake without blocking the other guy or running him off the track in doing so.

Though if you quick enough to not worry about any time penalties, or it takes out the other guy, it’s a sure fire way of getting through.

Has the added bonus of drivers giving you a wide berth next time too

Nothing, just an inchident 😉

Max and Charles take a trip down memory lane as they talk us through that moment at Turn 1 🤜🤛#LasVegasGP #F1 pic.twitter.com/r849oVVrsT

— Formula 1 (@F1) November 19, 2023

Tbf he’s now come out and said the penalty was fair cos he was sliding out on the dirty track

Ah so just a mistake rather than a deliberate manoeuvre? I think not.

I think a mixture of both. Max was always going to do that, and it would have been fair enough had he not also got a bit caught out by the lack of grip there; I don’t think he meant to overshoot the corner. It caught Alonso out too, after all.

That said, I did enjoy the fact that Max and RB’s evident confidence that they could build a 5 second gap before the first stop was rather spoiled by the fact that they didn’t.

Must admit I was pleasantly surprised to see so much action. Having watched the onboard from qualifying I thought it looked like it would be a catalogue of uninteresting DRS passes on the straight and nowhere to pass elsewhere… how wrong I was. Leclerc’s move on the final lap was quite splendid.

Also, after binging the Brawn documentary, how unpleasant it is to be reminded of what an objectionable shit Bernie is. Other than that, and Keanu Reeves’ apparent inability to learn his notes before doing an interview, it was worth the £7.99 for the month.

cheekymonkey888
Isnt that what most drivers do? Block passes to get the other driver concede. Seems that being an F1 world champion gives them the  privilege. Pretty sure Senna, Hamilton, Schumacher have all done this at some point in their careers.

Verstappen’s technique is different as he’s not just got up the inside in the braking zone, he’s still “behind” at the point of turn in and is usually carrying too much speed to make the apex.  It’s the kind of move that would be easily countered by an undercut, high-low by the car about to be overtaken but he position/times it so that his overshooting the apex forces the other car off the track and it’s so last minute that the other guy doesn’t know he’s even there until he is.  How many times has he used a DRS tow to throw it up the inside travelling probably 20ks faster, balked the other guys corner and then run himself off the road, mid-corner? It may be effective but it’s unsportsmanlike and ugly, just like he is. A truly nasty ****.  As others, I can’t believe Russell has fallen for this ****.

I was expecting to dislike this race as all show and no race. I was wrong.
I was expecting it to be dull with just a few DRS over takes. I was wrong.
I was expecting the pre- or post- race coverage on C4 to be interesting with the new track etc. I was wrong.
I was expecting Max to be an annoying, arrogant **** and push people off the road. I was (partly*) wrong.

Overall I think it was one of the best BP weekends of the year for a regular but fairly casual C4 viewer**

*He was still arrogant

** I have followed F1 since the 90s but stopped following all the details and arguments after, and because of, the race control decisions and complete farce where Max ‘beat’ Lewis to the title through the decisions made with getting back markers out the way etc.

TBH though the issue isn’t Max’s overtaking technique; it’s the blanket 5 second penalty that’s the problem. (This race excepted) RB were absolutely confident about what would happen at the first corner, and probably had a meeting beforehand that went along the lines of;

“yeah, go for it, what’s the worst that can happen, a 5 second penalty?”

If you want to stop drivers doing stupid things than give the race stewards the ability to penalise drivers properly rather than the current nonsense, which is clearly not really working as a deterrent. 

WorldClassAccident
Free Member

the race control decisions and complete farce where Max ‘beat’ Lewis to the title through the decisions made with getting back markers out the way etc.

Made me smile when the Red Bull podium rep was hoofed out of the ‘Cool Down Limo’! 🤣

If you want to stop drivers doing stupid things than give the race stewards the ability to penalise drivers properly rather than the current nonsense, which is clearly not really working as a deterrent.

If the other driver’s still in the race a more impactful penalty would be that the offender’s penalty is 5 seconds plus the time gap to the victim on the lap where the offender enters the pits, or if the offender doesn’t pit then their race time is set to 5s more than the victim’s. If the victim is forced to retire then maybe take the gap to the car behind at the time of the incident and work the penalty so that is reduced by 5s.

But that’s probably too complicated for the current F1 audience – it’d be like going back to the days where a race interrupted by a red flag was classified based on the aggregate time over both legs.

I get the feeling that “F1” likes Max and RB and they’ll pretty much let him get away with anything so long as it’s “interesting”.

A colleague suggested that if they (F1) had anything about them they’d be looking towards MotGP and their Long Lap punishments where a rider has to take a long way around a corner within a prescribed zone that effectively hobbles them for a significant chunk of time that enables others to overtake.  Its obviously much more effective in MotoGP where the bikes are closer and much smaller.  He was saying it’s not uncommon to lose 7 places when implemented which would be a much more fair punishment for the type of **** that MV pulls. I guess its like a drive through penalty of old without the risk of hitting any teams members.

Perhaps they should replace a 5 second penalty with a 3 place penalty which you have to give up within a certain number of laps.

May be the 5 second penalty should me multiplied by the inverse of your position in the championship.

So Max would get 20 x 5 seconds and who ever is last would get 5 seconds.

Maybe make it 5 seconds plus the gap to whoever you forced off-track at the time the penalty is applied (subject to a maximum of maybe 10-15 seconds so that pitting/retirement doesn’t make the penalty absurdly large). Then any running off into the distance is nullified and handing the place back becomes the sensible option. But then you run into complications if the stewards take ages to reach a decision—which generally they do.

On the one hand it’s clear that when you’ve got a dominant car it’s not hard to build a 5 second gap, and it’s equally clear that Red Bull were planning on doing exactly that. But on the other, there’s so much grey area in attributing blame for collisions, or overtakes where you could call it as the overtaker passing off-track or the defender forcing them off-track, that whatever is proposed will always end up being unfair sooner or later.

I can’t believe Russell has fallen for this ****.

I dunno… for me it was a racing incident: it was a legitimate move from Max, he made the corner and left space. Whether to attribute significant blame to George is a bit more open to opinion. Where it starts to get challenging is when you hold it up against other incidents such as Silverstone 2021, where Max turned in on Lewis and Red Bull threw their toys big time. For me, in that incident Lewis wasn’t at fault just as in this one Max wasn’t.

Maybe make it 5 seconds plus the gap to whoever you forced off-track at the time the penalty is applied

There’s a flaw in your plan there…  

There’s a flaw in your plan there…

I’m sure there are plenty, but you might have to be specific about the presumably obvious one 🙂

(And I now see that thepurist proposed something similar, which I hadn’t noticed.)

how unpleasant it is to be reminded of what an objectionable shit Bernie is

He really is, I wonder if he realised how he’d be portrayed in the documentary? (as a duplicitous shit) 

Well, documentaries generally strive to be largely factual, so it’s hard to imagine him being portrayed any other way. As if he cares anyway.

I think he knows what he is, and loves every second of it, as long as he’s winning.

How about just being told to give the place back?

How about just being told to give the place back?

That’s a (potential) problem if the “wronged” driver has been overtaken by another driver eg Verstappen forces Hamilton off the road but, just after,  LeClerc gets past Hamilton.

For Hamilton to get back in front of Verstappen, what happens to LeClerc?

For Hamilton to get back in front of Verstappen, what happens to LeClerc?

Verstappen loses two places. Tough luck.

what happens to LeClerc?

The Ferrari strategy team will make sure he finishes behind both the other cars.

how unpleasant it is to be reminded of what an objectionable shit Bernie is

Bernie is Bernie, he knows what he is and it doesnt bother him in the lightest!

He has made his Billions, ran F1 for decades, pretty much made people do what he wanted them to do, even they didnt realise themselves, has lived to a ripe old age and i reckon will hit 100 years old and he knows once hes gone we will all still be talking about him!!

Love him or loathe he is a massive part of F1 history

He has made his Billions

As have plenty of others off the back of him.