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  • F1 2021 – spoilers here
  • Premier Icon Kryton57
    Full Member

    Hamilton spent the whole race taking caution on the overtake, more than many others in fact. As the ruling shows the views was that – like others who’d set the precedent – Verstappen took the choice to continue to turn in rather than cut the corner an concede.

    Lewis continues with “hard but fair” whereas Verstappen continues with “unrelenting and entitled”.

    Premier Icon dannybgoode
    Full Member

    This could have been very very nasty…

    Premier Icon thepurist
    Full Member

    Reminds me of the old joke… “What do you call a man with a car on his head?”

    At least you can’t point at one incident that turned the championship fight this year – there have already been plenty of points lost by incident and accident on both sides.

    Premier Icon grum
    Full Member

    I notice a distinct lack of hysterics from Merc. No MV was trying to murder LH or anything – just heads down and get on with it.

    Wolff did describe it as a ‘tactical foul’ by Verstappen. I think he may have a point though.

    Premier Icon Daffy
    Full Member

    In fariness to Max and with respect to walking off – Lewis was clearly trying to reverse out of the gravel trap as Max walked away.

    BUT WRT to the crash, same corner, leclerc in MV position and Bottas in LH position, leclerc bailed knowing how couldn’t make the corner without causing a collision. MV didn’t and caused a collision.

    As Coulthard stated after the race, if there had been a wall there, MV wouldn’t have put himself in that position, but as usual, he decided to play dodgems, just hoping that he could bang his way through with the wheels parallel.

    This season, I do believe the MV deserves the Championship based on what we’ve seen up to this point, but he’s not doing himself any favours at the moment. I fully agree with Damon Hill here – MV calculated the cost of that collision and thought he could get away with it.

    Premier Icon tjagain
    Full Member

    Lewis continues with “hard but fair” whereas Verstappen continues with “unrelenting and entitled”.

    And there is my point made.

    Hamiliton has done exactly that many times in his career. given his opponents the choice of being hit or being overtaken. Less so now than when younger but he has plenty previous for nerffing rivals off the track – indeed he did it at silverstone

    Premier Icon thols2
    Free Member

    I think Max has taken the view that he needs to show that he will never back down in order to intimidate drivers to not challenge him. That works when you are not a championship contender and the other driver has much more to lose. Doesn’t work when the other guy isn’t intimidated and also has nothing to lose.

    Premier Icon dannybgoode
    Full Member

    Wolff did describe it as a ‘tactical foul’ by Verstappen

    That was a single, pertinent comment; calmly made and not repeated. Horner, Dr Marko etc ramped up the hyperbole with every interview and accusing someone of a tactical foul is not screaming ‘they tried to kill my driver’ at every opportunity 🙂

    In fariness to Max and with respect to walking off – Lewis was clearly trying to reverse out of the gravel trap as Max walked away.

    Car could have been stuck in gear, driver could have been unconscious foot on pedal, driver in car could have been running on pure adrenaline but seriously injured and not noticed etc. He should have checked. Any driver would have checked if only to then tell them to f off if they were ok.

    Premier Icon nickc
    Full Member

    In fariness to Max and with respect to walking off – Lewis was clearly trying to reverse out of the gravel trap as Max walked away.

    I’m not sure that absolves him of the responsibility to just walk over a check everything is OK, The car could’ve been stuck, throttle, engine etc, he was literally “Johnny on the spot” I think it’s a pretty poor show.

    Premier Icon richmtb
    Full Member

    Horner’s reaction was telling. When asked to give his view on who was to blame he went straight for “this was a racing incident”. He knew his driver was mainly to blame, the stewards agreed

    Premier Icon swavis
    Full Member

    Just watched it, Verstappen is a complete tool! I didn’t have much respect for him before but absolutely none now, utterly classless! Especially after all Karen Horner’s nonsense last time.

    Premier Icon PJM1974
    Free Member

    Looking at the replays, Verstappen’s attempted overtake was opportunistic at best, at no point was his Red Bull level with Hamilton’s Merc. I’m not sure that I subscribe to the anti-Verstappen hysteria on these pages though, most of the rest of the grid have tried to make an opportunistic pass at one time or another but without cannoning into a sausage kerb and bouncing onto another car.

    The actual accident was shocking though – imagine if that had been pre-Halo, Lewis would have sustained a serious neck injury for sure.

    Premier Icon richmtb
    Full Member

    I’m not sure that I subscribe to the anti-Verstappen hysteria on these pages though, most of the rest of the grid have tried to make an opportunistic pass at one time or another but without cannoning into a sausage kerb and bouncing onto another car.

    No hysteria, it was a clumsy move, the stewards agreed. Max clearly had no intention of driving over the top of Lewis though.

    Should he have checked on Lewis? He’ll need to reflect on that himself.

    Premier Icon Daffy
    Full Member

    Car could have been stuck in gear, driver could have been unconscious foot on pedal, driver in car could have been running on pure adrenaline but seriously injured and not noticed etc. He should have checked. Any driver would have checked if only to then tell them to f off if they were ok.

    If you watch it, Hamilton actively tries (starts and stops a couple of times) as Verstappen is walking by. He would’ve been able to hear and see this. Had Lewis been successful in reversing out, it might’ve placed Max in more danger of being hit by Lewis…saying that, he did walk right behind a car attempting to reverse, so…

    Premier Icon Bez
    Full Member

    Hamiliton has done exactly that many times in his career. given his opponents the choice of being hit or being overtaken.

    There’s a significant difference between giving someone else the choice as to whether to have a collision, and being the one who causes the collision. The former is a pretty standard racing tactic and is a result of positioning the car where you’re entitled to hold the line (as per Mercedes’ argument at Silverstone in reference to the FIA’s pre-existing guidance), while the latter is just over-aggressive driving and comes as a result of being positioned where your opponent is entitled to hold their line.

    Premier Icon PJM1974
    Free Member

    Should he have checked on Lewis? He’ll need to reflect on that himself.

    Agreed, but Max could see that Lewis was attempting to reverse out so it would’ve been clear that there wasn’t a major injury there. Max was clearly furious as he felt that he’d had the door slammed on him. I should think that the stewards meeting and subsequent penalty might’ve given him some clarity though.

    Premier Icon lawman91
    Full Member

    Max knew what he was doing for sure and it again shows his unwillingness to play the long term game and instead just throw his dummy out the pram or resort to playing dirty.

    He knew that with Lewis ahead, he had zero chance of getting back past and would lose points; he couldn’t get past a Mclaren so how could he get past a faster Mercedes? No problem, just lob it up the inside and not cut the chicane as others would, best case I get past and we bump wheels, worst case we’re both out and I’ve lost nothing. It’s just petulance and one day its going to end in tears. His sheer “I’m right, it’s my corner, everyone else is wrong” sense of entitlement mentally has already caused a number of incidents.

    I get it, everyone makes mistakes/misjudgements in the heat of the moment, Lewis included, but Max is next level in terms of entitlement and I hope it doesn’t take someone getting seriously hurt or worse for him to realise that sometimes you just have to accept defeat and be a man about it.

    Premier Icon Pook
    Full Member

    That max was spinning his wheels while on top of Hamo’s car says it all for me. Had he hooked it up he’d have ripped his head off.

    I say 50/50 on the crash and I’m a die hard Hamo fan incidentally TJ

    Premier Icon reggiegasket
    Free Member

    it was a clumsy and desperate move, in my opinion. Trying to overtake around the outside in a tight chicane is optimistic at best.

    Whoever wins the championship, Max and Horner have certainly not come out of this season well…

    Premier Icon retro83
    Free Member

    So pleased for Danny Ric, hope this sorts his confidence out and marks a turnaround in his year. Really seemed like he had genuine pace in the car, opening a fair gap to Lando and setting the fastest lap towards the end.

    Regarding Max / Hammo – Brad Philpot on Missed Apex summed my feelings up perfectly.

    Max basically wants it both ways – being able to run people wide and force them off the track when it suits, but also him being left space when he’s trying to make the move.

    Premier Icon mashr
    Free Member

    Really seemed like he had genuine pace in the car, opening a fair gap to Lando and setting the fastest lap towards the end.

    That’s happened at Monza a lot over the years. Good engine and slippery in a straight line opens it up to different results. Unfortunately take the car straight back to somewhere that needs to excel in the corners (eg Barcelona) and normal service resumes. Still really good to see a McLaren 1-2 for the first time since………..?

    Premier Icon
    Pook
    Full Member

    That max was spinning his wheels while on top of Hamo’s car says it all for me.

    To me that just says a driver is trying to get back into the race. Interesting that it seems ok for Hamilton to be running on adrenaline but not Verstappen

    Premier Icon tlr
    Full Member

    Max basically wants it both ways – being able to run people wide and force them off the track when it suits, but also him being left space when he’s trying to make the move.

    This is it in a nutshell – he (and Horner) just seems totally blind to his hypocrisy.

    Premier Icon Daffy
    Full Member

    Really seemed like he had genuine pace in the car, opening a fair gap to Lando and setting the fastest lap towards the end.

    He was told to go for it at the end to get the fastest lap. Norris was told to hold station and was only informed after a lap or so that Daniel had been told to go for it. That’s why there was a gap.

    Premier Icon thols2
    Free Member

    Really seemed like he had genuine pace in the car, opening a fair gap to Lando and setting the fastest lap towards the end.

    I think it was a track specific thing. Ricciardo has had trouble adapting to how the McLaren needs to be turned into corners. A high-speed circuit will mask that. What is encouraging is that he seems just as fast as Lando when the car suits him. There’s a good chance that next year’s McLaren won’t have that issue for Ricciardo so the two McLaren drivers may be very closely matched next year if last weekend is any guide. That would actually leave Red Bull as the only front running team without two top drivers.

    Premier Icon chrismac
    Full Member

    Brilliant for Ricardo.

    As for max he will get away Scott free by taking the inevitable extra engine change at the same time.

    Premier Icon retro83
    Free Member

    chrismac

    As for max he will get away Scott free by taking the inevitable extra engine change at the same time.

    I guess the only thing is that it forces his hand into doing so at a track where it’s very hard to overtake.

    Premier Icon thepurist
    Full Member

    I guess the only thing is that it forces his hand into doing so at a track where it’s very hard to overtake.

    Yeah but when he’s on a charge Max is one of the best overtakers in F1…. oh hang on.

    Premier Icon nickc
    Full Member

    Premier Icon mashr
    Free Member

    That’s not exactly insightful. He can’t turn left or hold straight as there’s a massive kerb in front of him, and he’s too late to go down the escape route. If he had done the crash might’ve been even worse

    Premier Icon Bez
    Full Member

    Yeah, if you watch the onboard, his steering inputs are fine for a wide radius on the first Retifilio and a very tight line on the second. Nothing wrong with his line through there in terms of making the corner, the only fly in the ointment is the fact that Hamilton is in the Retifilio too and is ahead of him throughout the chicane. Single frames rarely tell a fair story of an incident.

    Premier Icon thols2
    Free Member

    TBH, I think it was basically a racing incident where Max got a bit too aggressive. The stewards obviously went over all the available data and that’s the conclusion they came to. The same holds for the Silverstone crash. Red Bull’s reaction to the Silverstone one was silly, but their frustration was understandable. Time to move on from both incidents, that’s what’s going to happen when you have two drivers in closely matched cars.

    Premier Icon retro83
    Free Member

    Bez
    Full Member

    Yeah, if you watch the onboard, his steering inputs are fine for a wide radius on the first Retifilio and a very tight line on the second. Nothing wrong with his line through there in terms of making the corner, the only fly in the ointment is the fact that Hamilton is in the Retifilio too and is ahead of him throughout the chicane. Single frames rarely tell a fair story of an incident.

    Yeah but Max wasn’t ever making the second corner without running massively wide on the exit and into Hamilton. He stayed on that line instead of using the run off absolutely knowing there would be contact.

    As Brad explains a lot better than I can @ 17:08 on in this

    Premier Icon futonrivercrossing
    Free Member

    MV also knew that any grid penalty from the incident would be wiped out by the engine penalty…….

    Premier Icon mashr
    Free Member

    Yeah but Max wasn’t ever making the second corner without running massively wide on the exit and into Hamilton

    Rookie error – he just needs to go on the inside knowing fine well it’s a dirty piece of track with hardly any grip. Extra points for making it a really high speed one 😉

    Premier Icon thols2
    Free Member

    That’s why the stewards said that Verstappen was predominantly at fault and gave him a penalty. At Silverstone, Hamilton got a penalty that was effectively meaningless. This time, Verstappen gets a penalty that is effectively meaningless, but that’s because Bottas screwed up and Verstappen’s engine was damaged. Without that, he wouldn’t need that engine change, but it’s just how things go sometimes. Time to move on, nobody’s going to change their mind based on rewatching YouTube videos.

    Premier Icon orena45
    Free Member

    Any one else getting an advert for ‘Mad Max Fury Road’ gambling on this thread (genuinely!)? 😆

    Premier Icon thols2
    Free Member

    Any one else getting an advert for ‘Mad Max Fury Road’ gambling on this thread (genuinely!)?

    No, just the usual lingerie ads.

    Premier Icon FB-ATB
    Full Member

    There was an article on msn earlier- gist being Marko thinks Lewis’ injury is spurious. Best bit, they spelt his name Helmet!!

    Disappeared before I could get a screen grab (not that I’d be able to post an image here!)

    Premier Icon igm
    Full Member

    Lewis Helmet-on?

    Something like… (with apologies to cricket commentary)

    The two championship contenders – Max Verstappen Lewis Helmet-on

    Pretend to be Murray Walker saying it

    (sorry)

    Premier Icon retro83
    Free Member

    Vettel and Stroll confirmed at Aston next year. Guess that’s just Gio’s seat left up for grabs?

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