F1 2019 (spoilers obviously)

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  • F1 2019 (spoilers obviously)
  • legend
    Member

    Odd that they missed the French 4-stopper

    hols2
    Member

    I was a big fan when he started at Benneton and made Piquet look average, but then this was very dubious:

    Then this was blatantly foul:

    Then this was just pathetic:

    So his unquestioned ability and achievements will always be overshadowed by the scandals for me.

    legend
    Member

    Then this was just pathetic

    Not sure how Michelin and the FIAs **** up taints him?

    hols2
    Member

    Not sure how Michelin and the FIAs **** up taints him?

    Schumacher was happy enough taking glory for a non-race that dealt a fatal blow to F1 in the USA. Ferrari could have said they would accept Michelin swapping the unsafe tyres for safe ones and the FIA would have accepted it. Schumacher was a big enough star that he could have refused to race and Ferrari would have had to accept it. After all the scandals, team orders, etc., his desire to win at all costs was just too much for me, and this is a pathetic example of that attitude.

    legend
    Member

    It’s my understanding that Michelin (who started the almighty **** up by not taking into account the new surface) didn’t have any safe tyres up their sleeve to use (or certainly not enough of them). Which is why they suggested a chicane was added at the last minute, but that was knocked on the head and the FIA told them they would just have to lift off *insert facepalm here*. From my perspective he was paid to get in a car and drive, he shouldn’t have been involved in meddling with the tyre issue.

    hols2
    Member

    Yes, now I remember, it was a chicane, not replacement tyres. Basically, all the other teams agreed, but Ferrari refused. Ferrari were a really nasty bunch of cheating pricks back then and Schumacher was quite happy to go along with it for most of his career. He was much more than just a guy paid to turn up and drive, he was right at the core of the Ferrari team and quite happy to take a few points from a debacle that left 100 000 American fans out of pocket. Utterly pathetic.

    legend
    Member

    The FIA knocked back the chicane, not Ferrari

    Premier Icon convert
    Subscriber

    For me it was his parking up at Rascasse to deny Alonso (or anyone else) a chance to take pole from him that meant he will always be a total bellend in my memory. The not being seen in public or being interviewed at all after his accident is also to me very weird – the act of a supremely vain man.

    legend
    Member

    Yeah that one and the Villeneuve incidents in particular I’ll never understand

    hols2
    Member

    The FIA knocked back the chicane, not Ferrari

    All the other teams agreed to the chicane, Ferrari refused. If Ferrari had supported the other teams, the fans would have been able to watch a race. Schumacher didn’t give a rat’s arse about the fans.

    legend
    Member

    Ferrari weren’t at the meeting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_United_States_Grand_Prix#Attempts_at_compromise

    Even if the statement from Bernie about what Todt said is ropey, his actual “I wouldn’t have agreed” comment came after the minutes had been published.

    Also “The nine team principals who were present then resolved that, unless they and the FIA could come to a decision in the best interest of the sport, they would not participate in the race.”

    Then there was the massive threat from FIA/Moseley about all FIA staff being removed from the race and then that the FIA would go to town on any/every FIA race (of any type) held in the states!

    Don’t get me wrong, Todt could have decided to be more involved but I dont feel it can be laid at Schumachers door.

    hols2
    Member

    If he had any self-respect, his car would have suffered an “electronics glitch” and he would have quit the race. He was happy to be gifted points for a win in a non-race while fans got shafted.

    Premier Icon tomhoward
    Subscriber

    The not being seen in public or being interviewed at all after his accident is also to me very weird – the act of a supremely vain man.

    Really? Given the little news about the accident other than ‘very serious head injury’ what makes you think he is capable of an interview?

    Premier Icon thepurist
    Subscriber

    tomhoward+1 = maybe it’s the act of a very sick man. Sadly I doubt that an interview with him would be productive.

    Premier Icon slowoldman
    Subscriber

    The not being seen in public or being interviewed at all after his accident is also to me very weird – the act of a supremely vain man.

    That’s a seriously weird attitude.

    legend
    Member

    Really? Given the little news about the accident other than ‘very serious head injury’ what makes you think he is capable of an interview?

    It didn’t even occur to me that was the accident being referred to – what a bizarre statement

    Premier Icon pondo
    Subscriber

    If he had any self-respect, his car would have suffered an “electronics glitch” and he would have quit the race. He was happy to be gifted points for a win in a non-race while fans got shafted.

    The fans would have been happier with less cars, you think?

    hols2
    Member

    The fans would have been happier with less cars, you think?

    I don’t think they could have been less unhappy, but at least Schumacher and Ferrari wouldn’t have looked utterly ridiculous. Here’s the Wikipedia report on the race, note how huge numbers of fans just walked out as soon as they realized what was happening (because nobody even bothered to inform them what was going on):

    Because of the retirement of the drivers who qualified ahead of them, Michael Schumacher and his Ferrari teammate, Barrichello, were the foremost starters, though using the grid positions they had qualified in; the pair were followed by Tiago Monteiro and Narain Karthikeyan, both driving for Jordan. Rounding out the remaining field of six were Christijan Albers and Patrick Friesacher of Minardi. Schumacher retained the lead when the race started, and the only changes in positioning came when Karthikeyan overtook Albers but immediately lost the position again going into turn 1.[19] The two Ferrari drivers quickly built a significant lead over their rivals. By lap 10, many of the estimated 100,000[20]–130,000[21] attendees had begun to leave the grandstands. Thousands of fans were reported to have gone to the Indianapolis Motor Speedway ticket office to demand refunds, and police were called to keep the peace.[22] Boos were heard throughout the race, and some upset fans threw beer cans and water bottles on the track.[23]

    The race was a story of pit strategy, as the only passing on the circuit was of lapped traffic. Albers was the only car to run a three pit stop race, as all other drivers chose to stop only twice. The only lead changes came on lap 26, as Schumacher’s 32-second stop gave Barrichello the lead, and on lap 51, as Schumacher turned in the quickest pit stop at 23.615 seconds, giving him enough time to exit pit lane at the same time as Barrichello, with the result of forcing Barrichello into the grass of Turn One. After this incident, which was not investigated by race officials, both Ferrari drivers were reminded over their radios not to crash out of the race, and they both settled into a slower pace, comfortably ahead of the rest of the field.[16] Schumacher ended up with the victory, ahead of Barrichello. Monteiro and Karthikeyan, more than a lap down, finished in a distant third and fourth, and Albers and Friesacher brought up the rear, two laps down.[24][25] All four of the drivers for Jordan and Minardi scored their first points in Formula One at this race.[25] Karthikeyan’s points were the first for an Indian driver in Formula One.[26] This was also the final race at which the Minardi team tallied points.[27]

    At the podium ceremony, at which none of the scheduled dignitaries were present, all Ferrari team members quietly accepted their awards, and quickly exited. However, Monteiro stayed behind to celebrate his first podium finish, and the first for a Portuguese driver.[16]

    Premier Icon pondo
    Subscriber

    Hmm. So why did Schumi look ridiculous, and not Barrichello et al? Wasn’t his job to run the PA system, and I’m not sure the situation would have been improved by any of the remaining drivers/teams voluntarily opting out.

    hols2
    Member

    So why did Schumi look ridiculous

    It was fairly obvious to everyone that Ferrari had always imposed team orders, although they pretended they didn’t. I much prefer the way Mercedes have done it, with both drivers allowed to fight for the championship, but team orders sometimes used when it makes no sense for the two drivers to fight each other. As long as it’s done openly and fairly, I accept that as part of the sport. Clearly, Schumacher was stronger than any of his teammates, no doubt about that, hence his number one status in the team, but even when Ferrari were crushingly faster than any of the opposition, his teammates were still required to let him win because they were contracted to be supporters for Schumacher.

    At Indy, the Ferrari was massively faster than the Jordan, and the Minardi was a long way further back, so the only way the race could have been interesting was if the Ferraris were allowed to race for the win, the Jordans were allowed to race for third, and the Minardis were allowed to race for fifth. Instead, Ferrari ordered their drivers not to race, so Schumacher was just gifted a win and the fans were robbed of what little excitement was possible. Just pathetic. Schumacher’s career achievements will always be clouded by the use of team orders, not to mention the other scandals. At Indy, he forced his teammate off the track (one of his nasty habits) and then the team imposed team orders to make sure that Schumacher could win without needing to play dirty. That’s not how someone who has any respect for his teammates and fans behaves.

    Premier Icon Kryton57
    Subscriber

    We’ve talked about this before. This isn’t Schumacher or F1 specific, theres plenty of examples of sports people pushing boundary’s or being accused rightly or wrongly of cheating on the basis of a predominant will to win against all costs.

    I mean – forgetting the German connection, look at Vettel now. We had plenty of team orders, baby strops, “dodgy” manoeuvres, ignorance in the form of the Mark Webber incident etc from him have we not? He talks a better fan based story than Schumacher, but is he really any better? I don’t think so. I think in Schumachers day it was just easier for a Driver to be the predominant political force in the team than it is today in some respects.

    hols2
    Member

    look at Vettel now. We had plenty of team orders, baby strops, “dodgy” manoeuvres, ignorance in the form of the Mark Webber incident etc from him have we not? He talks a better fan based story than Schumacher, but is he really any better? I don’t think so.

    I don’t think so either. Hamilton, however, managed to hold his own against three World Champion teammates (Alonso, Button, and Rosberg) without needing team orders. He can be an annoying dick at times, but I can’t recall him ever crossing the line into outright dirty play the way Schumacher did whenever it suited him.

    Premier Icon pondo
    Subscriber

    So your outrage at Schumacher’s Indy behaviour is now nothing to do with your original complaint, right?

    hols2
    Member

    No, my point is that I was a big fan of Schumacher when he first appeared, but then his behavior over the rest of his career was disgraceful. It wasn’t just one thing, it was numerous things that made it obvious that he didn’t care how he won. The Indy thing was just one of the most pathetic examples. Crashing into Hill and Villeneuve were probably the two worst, but his career was just one shameful thing after another. Real pity because he was unquestionably a massively talented driver, but there will always be questions hanging over him because of his behavior. Hamilton and Alonso have not always been perfect, but they will both go down as great drivers who achieved their titles without needing to play dirty.

    Premier Icon slowoldman
    Subscriber

    It was fairly obvious to everyone that Ferrari had always imposed team orders, although they pretended they didn’t. I much prefer the way Mercedes have done it, with both drivers allowed to fight for the championship, but team orders sometimes used when it makes no sense for the two drivers to fight each other.

    You are aware I assume that at one time team orders were banned whereas now they are allowed?

    Premier Icon pondo
    Subscriber

    The Indy thing was just one of the most pathetic examples

    You haven’t demonstrated that, if you don’t mind me saying.

    hols2
    Member

    You are aware I assume that at one time team orders were banned whereas now they are allowed?

    Yes, I am aware of that, but it’s something that was never enforceable, hence Ferrari’s blatant use of team orders to ensure Schumacher always beat his teammates. Or are you saying that Schumacher and Ferrari were cheating?

    hols2
    Member

    You haven’t demonstrated that, if you don’t mind me saying.

    And you think it was an exemplar of motor racing at its best?

    Premier Icon pondo
    Subscriber

    That’s not what I said – but I don’t think it’s fair to Schumacher’s behaviour was “outrageous”.

    Premier Icon slowoldman
    Subscriber

    Or are you saying that Schumacher and Ferrari were cheating?

    If Rob Smedley had said “Let Michael pass” that would be cheating, but he didn’t. he would say something cryptic like “Michael is faster than you” – i.e. orders were illegal, giving information wasn’t. Which is pretty much why the whole team orders thing was reversed back to what it used to be, because it was unenforceable. That and the acceptance that F1 after all is a team sport.

    Premier Icon Kryton57
    Subscriber

    Michael is faster than you

    It amounts to the same thing. Thats a coded order which if not obeyed likely results in an internal team sanction aka its an order when team orders were banned, aka cheating or at best bending the rules.

    I’m in agreement with Hols in general with the exception that I don’t think Schumacher is unique in his unbending will to win which results in overstepping the line. Yes there are drivers that don’t need to do that, yet STILL drivers that do. On that basis I don’t think Schumacher deserves to be vilified. He’s an gifted driver and deserved of his record as much as anyone, whether you like his methods and personality or not.

    And lest we forget, he’s spending the rest of his life suffering for his art in the most terrible way, I like to think we could have some empathy for that whilst remembering an exiting and talented driving personality which we’ve had the pleasure to grace our life times.

    stumpy01
    Member

    Schumacher always seems a lot of stick for his unsporting/cheating actions & win at any cost attitude.
    FWIW, I admired his driving but didn’t particularly like him much as a sportsman and the Ferrari dominance during his years there did make things rather boring.

    I wasn’t particularly into F1 when Senna was a dominant force but I seem to remember he had a similar win at any cost mentality, but is revered for it rather than hated. Maybe my perception of this is wrong, but can anyone shed any light on this? Is my perception wrong (quite likely), or does the hot-blooded Brazilian get perceived differently to the cold & clinical German?

    Premier Icon richmtb
    Subscriber

    I think being tragically killed at the height of your career tends to gives a more favourable view of your past indiscretions.

    The passionate Brazilian versus the cold and clinical German is just applying national stereotypes. They could both be cold and calculating or passionate and emotional when required.

    Schumacher was tearful on plenty of occassions and Senna certainly had a cold ruthless streak. They were more similar than a lot of people realise I think.

    hols2
    Member

    I wasn’t particularly into F1 when Senna was a dominant force but I seem to remember he had a similar win at any cost mentality,

    He was fanatically determined, but not generally dirty, apart from putting Prost off in the deciding race back whenever. Apparently him and Prost sorted out their differences later on, I think they had a lot of respect for each other, it’s just that having the two top drivers in the same team will always lead to friction. Senna and Alonso had their moments of pushing a bit beyond the limit of sportsmanship, but it doesn’t define their careers. Schumacher just kept on doing it; crashing into other drivers, forcing other drivers off the circuit, blatant team orders, the traction control and missing fuel filter controversy at Benneton, etc. Everywhere he went rules got bent or broken and he mostly got off without serious punishment. Senna, Alonso, and Hamilton had their moments but nothing like Schumacher.

    Getting back to the earlier discussions I agree with the sentiments that Vettel is likely to get riled by Leclerc as I think he will be a hungrier driver than Kimi. Vettel is a very good driver but, IMHO, like Rosberg just doesn’t quite have that x-factor when it comes to driving with his elbows out and overtaking strong drivers. It often just looks clunky and badly managed and last season usually ended up with him coming off worse. I originally thought he was a great driver – his first WDC, but by the time it got to 3 and 4 he got far too smug and up himself, disrespecting his fellow driver. I ma hoping Leclerc will at least win a race or two, certainly podium and generally give Vettel a proper fight. Bottas is clearly a number 2 to Hamilton. While he is a quick driver he has drifted off in far too many races this season. I expect this to be his last season at Merc before Occon comes in for him. The thing with RBR is that their cars have been very good in the past couple of years – they seem to drive well, get good traction and are capable of getting up close to the car in front. They were let down by the unreliability and lack of power in the engine. Not sure that the Honda engine will be as bad as some are predicting and I see them doing much better than we saw McLaren doing. As the Honda engine got better it revealed that the McLaren chassis was not as hot as they had tried to suggest it was. Could be an interesting season and looking forward to seeing the results from the first couple of races. I would expect Hamilton to do well – but will see how the cars are before thinking of predicting a 6th WDC. Will miss seeing it on TV though

    hols2
    Member

    Vettel reminds me of Damon Hill, who was really fast and excellent at setting up a car, but never seemed up to the rough and tumble of close racing like Schumacher, Senna, and Villeneuve.

    My guess about Honda is that they won’t be much of an improvement over Renault. At the moment, they seem to be roughly as powerful as Renault, but haven’t had to worry about reliability. Renault should improve a bit next year, so Honda need a big step up in power and reliability to match Red Bull’s ambitions. Also, Red Bull haven’t always turned out class leading cars at the start of the season, but they are very good at developing through the season. It’s not guaranteed that the 2019 Red Bull will be as good as 2018.

    It’s hard to say about the McLaren chassis. Last year’s was absolutely a dog, but the 2017 car seemed decently quick at circuits where engine power wasn’t an issue. Probably not quite as good as McLaren were saying, but much better than last year’s car. Still, they will be doing very well to beat Renault next year, so probably 4th or 5th fastest at best.

    eddiebaby
    Member

    That’ll teach Max a lesson!
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/46846722

    Raised eyebrow emoticon goes here.

    Pigface
    Member

    Good win for Alonso in Daytona.

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