does millar even want to ride? he made some comments a while back about giving the olympics a miss because of exactly the kind of thoughts being displayed here…

Stock and modified classes

Hora.

Just go get your ducks lined up in a row, before climbing aboard your high and mighty horse.

With that thinking should all the clean athletes keep quiet incase they too look high and mighty?

With that thinking should all the clean athletes keep quiet incase they too look high and mighty?

Eh ?.

My advise to you.
Is to go read his book.
Then come back here and tell me how clear cut it is, how black and white it is.
I invite you to educate yourself so at the very least.
You do not embarass yourself as you are currently doing.

You are pronouncing judgment on a Pro cyclist who never set out to Dope.
Yet you know nothing of how it came to be.

Can you see how your opinion is therefore invalid and frankly makes you look silly ?.

EDIT:
I’m not excusing what Millar did.
I believe he regrets it and lives with that everyday.
I’d be the last person to deny someone like Millar, a chance of redemption, at some level.

You are pronouncing judgment on a Pro cyclist who never set out to Dope.

Do you think ANY sportsman sets out on their career willing to dope? No.

The tipping point is due to stress/pressure for results/dip in form/injury/not getting selected etc etc.

Quit your yapping. You can’t railroad someone into your opinion.

Quit your yapping. You can’t railroad someone into your opinion.

I was rather hoping you would practice what you preach as the grow up were talking before you weighed in with your usual brand of well considered deep insights.

Yes Junkyard, you are Solo are right. I was wrong. I will always agree with bighitters in the future, I promise 🙄

Tricky issue this one. It would be nice to think that the Olympics represented the pinnacle of sporting endeavor, that it was drugs free event and that individual olympic associations were given the liberty to adopt the ultimate sanction (but not the other way around). Equally, this is probably naive (especially the first bits) and to take arguments to their logical conclusion (just for you JY!), the logic of criminals returning to “normal” life after a period of punishment is a hard to argue against.

As a parent though, I would tend to veer towards the life time ban simply for the example that this sends. We have already made the choice for one of our sons, not to pursue a sporting career partly due the widespread misuse of PEDS in that sport. Even the coaches demonstrated remarkable physical transformations despite this sport’s (hint) “whiter than white” image. 🙁

I wonder if there is ever a middle ground here? Well stupid question as this is where we are today. But I can see the arguments for life time bans in all pro sport and esp the Olympics and also a more libertarian (and less naive?) view that would advocate a free-for-all which leaves the individuals to take their own decisions re PEDS and to live with the inevitable consequences OF THEIR DECISIONS. The trouble with the latter is that at a young age, many people need protecting from these temptations. So the answer is……?

As a parent – life time bans
As an individual – leave to individual responsibility

Either way, watching DC is a Team GB vest will not be comfortable. Millar, hmmm?

Hora you are living proof that ignorance is no bar to an opinion which i rather thought was the definition off a BH.

THM whilst I agree would also rather be shot than start a sentence with the words ” as a parent” 😉

JY – I am a bit slow this morning, you have lost me there.

teamhurtmore – Member
As a parent though, I would tend to veer towards the life time ban simply for the example that this sends.

I think the example that Miller sends is more useful than a lifetime ban – it’s either ‘drugs are bad mmmmkay’ or ‘drugs are bad, I know because it cost me etc etc etc’. Would someone with a lifetime ban be bothered about trying to stop younger athletes being tempted to dope?

I think the example that Miller sends is more useful than a lifetime ban – it’s either ‘drugs are bad mmmmkay’ or ‘drugs are bad, I know because it cost me etc etc etc’. Would someone with a lifetime ban be bothered about trying to stop younger athletes being tempted to dope?

I would wholeheartedly agree with that and I would have thought it would have been more widely supported here.

Quit your yapping. You can’t railroad someone into your opinion.

Funny 😆

Hora.
You’ve completely missed the point.
I’m not setting out to mind wash you…
I’d need something to start with….

I was pointing out that you and our opinion are for shit, as you do not know the details about the man you wish to lynch.

That, what you’ve posted, makes you the idiot you are.

I was just trying to invite you to learn a bit before yapping
😉

Of course, you’re entitled to your opinion.
However, that in this case, your opnion is formed without knowing the story, kinda makes you look like a cock.
Is all.

Still, if the hats fits……
😀

Good point lifer – some of the best recreational drugs talks at their schools were given by ex-users. I had missed that.

(Actually, in reality, I veer much more towards the “FI” let’s have a free-for-all. Pro sport is what it is. Individuals make their own choices and should live with the consequences. Leave it to parents to protect their own kids and help them make their own decisions, but sadly this ignores the vulnerable who are abused by coaches etc. As I said, a very hard one.)

but sadly this ignores the vulnerable who are abused by coaches etc

Again I think the ex-users are valuable to this as (some) would have been in the same position and so will have experience of the techniques cheating coaches/manages use to do this.

Another good point Lifer – do you reckon that is how it worked in Nuff Respect’s case?

edit: sadly in my own experience it was the rapid physical transformation in my son’s selector/coach that told me enough!!

Hora you are living proof that ignorance is no bar to an opinion which i rather thought was the definition off a BH.

A Bighitter is someone who doesn’t respect anothers opinion, is bitter in life, will resort to slanging someone down or calling them a cock if they wont ‘listen’ to the ‘correct’ opinion.

I don’t have the energy to argue all day.

[And back on topic]

Sorry THM not aware of Nuff Respect.

calling them a cock if they wont ‘listen’ to the ‘correct’ opinion

Hora.
You don’t think you are a cock.
Am I miss judging you ?.
Is that becasue I don’t really know you ?…..

Hhmmmm, that sounds familiar….
😉

EDIT:
Sorry THM not aware of Nuff Respect.
Yes, who / what is Nuff Respect. ?.

hora – Member

I don’t have the energy to argue all day.
Then stop.

I think the example that Miller sends is more useful than a lifetime ban – it’s either ‘drugs are bad mmmmkay’ or ‘drugs are bad, I know because it cost me etc etc etc’. Would someone with a lifetime ban be bothered about trying to stop younger athletes being tempted to dope?

Is it a better example? Millar riding along in the TdF (or the World Champs, or even the Olympics) telling impressionable young riders his tales of woe. How he never rode for a top team again, competed in his dream of the Olympics, earned loads of money after been caught etc. etc. – yes, if he was riding the Barnsley 50km sportif as it was the only ride he is allowed to do, then yes.

Like some ex/caught drug dealer leaning out of his blinged up Range Rover telling kids on the street not to deal drugs as ‘look what happened to me’.

I’ve not read Millars book (or commonly called my version of events :wink:), he does come across a bit too Born Again Christian to me.

I’m really not decided on how I feel about Millar (for some reason I can’t stand Chambers) at the Olympics. If he was the one cheat I’d say no, but kinda assuming there’ll be others there is blurring the lines. Which is actually a sad indictment of sport isn’t it?

Nuff Respect was/is Linford Christie’s coaching team.

breatheeasy – Member

Is it a better example? Millar riding along in the TdF (or the World Champs, or even the Olympics) telling impressionable young riders his tales of woe. How he never rode for a top team again, competed in his dream of the Olympics, earned loads of money after been caught etc. etc. – yes, if he was riding the Barnsley 50km sportif as it was the only ride he is allowed to do, then yes.

I didn’t say ‘better’ I intentionally said ‘more useful’. And read the second part of my post again, if there were lifetime bans a) he wouldn’t have the profile and b) the motivation.

I think an Olympic athlete (assuming he’s selected) going round saying ‘I doped, it cost me this, this and this so don’t bother, now I’m clean and have acheived this’ is going to make more of an impact than some bloke who the kids will never have heard of recounting the glory days he lost from a time before they were even born.

I’ve not read Millars book (or commonly called my version of events :wink:), he does come across a bit too Born Again Christian to me.

That’s exactly why he wrote it! So it’s a problem for you that he’s now campaiging against doping?

THM – I’ll have a look

I’ve not read Millars book (or commonly called my version of events :wink:)

Yes, I will acknowledge that particular weakness.
However, if his book was full of lies, I trust the book would have been outed as a work of fiction.

Furthermore, he refers to some large and still active names in the sport, who wouldn’t take too kindly to Millar including them, if his book was fiction.

Furthermore, I’m not entirely convinced that having an ex-cheat telling the kiddies not to do x,y,z will be that strong an influence in keeping them clean.

But, that Millar has highlighted the vulnerability of pro riders, to being cornered into cheating.
Has been useful I believe.
And has, imo, contributed to the Pro scene taking action.
Its because of stories such as Millars that the measures to clean up the pro scene are here at all.

And, as I posted earlier.
If a lot of us are honest.
I would wager that most of us have benefited from someone else, allowing us a second chance.
At some point in our imperfect lives.

On this subject:

FBI launch Floyd Landis Defence Fund fraud probe

All those saying ‘lifetime ban’ do you recognise there’s a difference between Miller and Landis?

Well.
Its quite an emotive subject.
Each case will be different, but one basic distinction would appear to be those who admit and confess immediately, and those who don’t and try to turn the lie into the truth.

Interestingly, I caught the Armstring – Kimmage video on Youtube over the weekend.

Armstrong gave an intersting perspective on the subject.
Saying that the media, chasing Dopers, only makes it more difficult for dopers to admit it.

Furthermore, after reading Dog in a hat and Racing through the dark.
I have come to realise that some riders appear not to have any moral stance on PEDs, past, that they are de rigueur as much as a pair of toe-techors are for a builder.
Which is Sad, imo.

Armstrong gave an intersting perspective on the subject.
Saying that the media, chasing Dopers, only makes it more difficult for them to admit it

Well he would know quite a lot about this

From that can we take it Lance is saying if the media stop hounding him he’ll admit to taking drugs? 🙂

Well he would know quite a lot about this

Thats probably a topic for another thread.

My point was that someone who knows was commenting that things need to change, that a space needs to be created to allow that change to happen.

I think that people such as Millar, and those who supported him….
Appreciate the bigger picture and for their love of the sport, would do what they can to clean up a sport that at times, appeared to have its head in the sand over this subject.

In Millars particular case, I think being considered for a team position shouldn’t be ruled out.
However, at 35yrs of age, whether he makes the grade is another issue.

Also, while two years ban may not sound like too long to some.
It wouldn’t be two years training, when you are denied access to facilities, etc.
Also, when you consider what might have been achieved during those two years, at that point in Millars career.
I think we’ve all lost out, anyway.
And those two years don’t come back, ever.

From that can we take it Lance is saying if the media stop hounding him he’ll admit to taking drugs?

I had hoped this wouldn’t turn into an Armstrong debate.

However, after surviving Cancer, only to be called “Cancer“.
Well, thats well beyond the pale, in my book.

Kimmage and his editor should feel ashamed of themselves for that headline.
imo.

I had hoped this wouldn’t turn into an Armstrong debate.

You started it. 😥

You started it.

Well, that was a missed opportunity.
😉

EDIT:
Anyway. In Millar’s Case, I won’t have a problem if he puts himself forward, or if he is asked to assist the team.

I know very little about Mr Chambers.

Interestingly I think there seems to be massive difference between the attitudes expressed towards cyclists who have been caught and those from other sports.

I can’t think of an example where a convicted doper is welcomed back with open arms outside of cycling.

Does this show that doping in cycling is/has been so prevalent that it’s expected you’ll get caught once in your career? or more so that other sports like to maintain that they are squeaky clean and dopers are individual ‘bad eggs’?

I’d say that anyone who can now prove that they are clean and has served their ban should be allowed to compete, irrespective of their protestations.
Isn’t the pinishment about learning about the error of their ways and rehabilitation?

Haven’t been through the thread completely, but I wouldn’t have much of a problem with Millar competing – I’m happy for a doper’s post-doping actions to mitigate their present and future treatment; in much the same way as I would take a criminal’s post-conviction/punishment actions into account when considering how he or she might be treated.

The one change I would make to the present system is to make any ban at least four years so that the period includes one olympic cycle.

It’s pretty plain to me that Millar has done much to mitigate his wrongdoings. I’m not so sure about Chambers – it seems that he has only done so after pressure being applied.

I can’t think of an example where a convicted doper is welcomed back with open arms outside of cycling

I wouldn’t go so far as to say that Millar was welcomed back with opened arms.
There were those who thought that he should have been banished to the waste lands for life.
However, a few individuals believed him, trusted him and backed him.
Read the book, if you haven’t and you’ll see who I am referring to.

I’d say that anyone who can now prove that they are clean and has served their ban should be allowed to compete, irrespective of their protestations.
Isn’t the pinishment about learning about the error of their ways and rehabilitation?

I’d go with that.
But, hopefully, one day perhaps, the authorities will get on top of doping and it will become just impossible / impractical to us PEDs.
The blood passport, record idea is a good start, imo.
Also tracking pro cyclists out of season is a must, really, I’d say.

Are Cav’s rainbow stripes ‘tainted’ by Miller’s (not insignificant by a long way) contributions in that race?

phil.w – Member
Interestingly I think there seems to be massive difference between the attitudes expressed towards cyclists who have been caught and those from other sports.

Did you see the ‘drugs in football’ despatches(?)?

The amount of collusion that goes on between players and support staff to help people avoid random testing is ridiculous, and the % of testing in football is nowhere near that of cycling.

Is it that there is more doping in cycling or is it that the authorities are stricter on testing?

I think they should have a games where they can take as many drugs a they want. The drug mutant Olympics if you will.

Same as having an openly racist football league.

The media wouldn’t have anything to write about aside from the awesome sporting achievements and dreadful football so I can’t see either taking off