Fair point T19. Also I have been christened into the anglican chirch never been though. Except when I was in scouts and we had to go for Easter.

The problem with religion and frankly some scientists is their level of confidence that they have "the" answer.

The reason I choose science over religion is science is prepared to change and be proven wrong, religion on the other hand is pretty intransigent or it wouldn't be religion.
Seems to me if you can't change you can't learn and grow.

My point is simple: what do the good works of atheists prove?

It proves that you don't have to be religious to do good.

The only fair thing to do when balancing this evidence, is to say that they are evidence against God; as they are evidence that people can do good without biblical reward or damnation.

Nah, that's flawed logic.

I dunno, I checked it out on Wiki too and it still sounds like bollocks. It's all cool up to the Big Bang Bollocks. How big a point? An infintesimally small one? Or a rubiks cube size? Or a football? The whole hooniverse, in one point? One single point you say? Sounds like made up shit to suit the measurements to me. And you believe it?

It's got to be bollocks.

It fits the evidence so is the best theory there is at the moment (as far as I know). But keep fishing if you want you might get that big bite yet.

I don't know about that just the church that the queen is the boss of. Lifer a book having bad things happening in it doens't make it bad now does it? Are journalists who document wars bad? By your definition I would guess so. Just out of curiosity lifer do you have any published works in the big bang. Hows your research going. Discovered any black holes, or for that matter the god particle I'm guessing you've got a cup of coffee resting on that little treat and you'll bring it out when the hadron colider doesn't work.

+1 JB

Ouch

Lifer – Member
It fits the evidence so is the best theory there is at the moment (as far as I know). But keep fishing if you want you might get that big bite yet.

So it's only a theory…it's ok for me to not believe it then is it? Are there any other hypotheses postulated? I hope so. Big Bang Bollocks is just that. Bollocks.

It proves that you don't have to be Christian to do good.

Ergo, citing the good works of Christians as evidence of God is deeply flawed logic.

If I believed that apples fall to the ground because of some mystical appley power and someone pointed out that oranges and many other fruit also fall to the ground, then would it still be reasonable for me to use the apples as evidence of a that special apple power?

Yeah yawn, I mean loads of eminent, erudite scientists lend credence to the Big Bang and yet all you can say is bollocks? Do you know any of the science? So you looked it up on wikipedia, big deal. Is that the bets you can do? Ss that equivalent to maths and physics A levels, a physics degree, a PHD and years as a research scientist? If you want an argument try at least posting on something you some knowledge about or can bullsh*it about for a bit, this effort is just lame.

Lifer a book having bad things happening in it doens't make it bad now does it? Are journalists who document wars bad?

No but I would say a journalist glorifying the destruction of an entire people because of what they belive is bad, or a book justifying corporal punishment, I'd say that's pretty bad.

Lifer. Its love really.

deadlydarcy – Member

So it's only a theory…it's ok for me to not believe it then is it? Are there any other hypotheses postulated? I hope so. Big Bang Bollocks is just that. Bollocks.

Given your advanced knowledge of astrophysics, life the universe and everything would you care to propose any theories of your own?

alex222 – Member
Lifer. Its love really.

What?

Confused of Sussex.

My point is simple: what do the good works of atheists prove?

It proves that you don't have to be religious to do good.

Or, that you don't need to believe in God to receive his Grace….

…The Father cares for all His sons, whether they know him or not 🙂

@dk: Nah, that's flawed logic.

Why so?

Tru dat

Or, that you don't need to believe in God to receive his Grace….
…The Father cares for all His sons, whether they know him or not

No, no, dk already assured me that he didn't think atheists doing good were doing God's work without realising it.

Besides, that would contradict "free will".

Yeah yawn, I mean loads of eminent, erudite scientists lend credence to the Big Bang

First you have to accept the existence of these scientists. I've never met them, and even if I thought I had I might have been delusional at the time.

I never said I have advanced knowledge of all that scientific stuff like you clever fellows. And I certainly don't have any theories of my own. But you don't have to be a scientist to think it's all a bit suss. It sounds a bit ridiculous to say that all this shit around us was the result of something very small going bang and then all this. I suspect lots of clever people privately think the same thing but are just afraid to say it.

Perhaps something else was at work? Some higher power that we just don't understand?

GrahamS,

I like your appley argument, but I still think it's your logic that's flawed, not mine.

I could have one leg and ride a bike. That doesn't mean that all one-legged people are cyclists. But it's evidence that people with one leg can ride bikes.

The existence of one-legged men who don't ride bikes wouldn't, on the other hand, prove that people with one leg can't ride bikes. And the existence of a one-legged cyclist wouldn't even prove that all people with one leg can ride bikes.

Understand now? 🙂

simonfbarnes – Member

Yeah yawn, I mean loads of eminent, erudite scientists lend credence to the Big Bang

First you have to accept the existence of these scientists. I've never met them, and even if I thought I had I might have been delusional at the time.

True. Anyway I wasn't asking you. Although do you have an alternative theory as to how our universe started? You are in fairly rarefied company there's some leviathans on here.

Or, that you don't need to believe in God to receive his Grace….
…The Father cares for all His sons, whether they know him or not
No, no, dk already assured me that he didn't think atheists doing good were doing God's work without realising it.

You're having a problem with logic this morning 🙂

hilldodger – Member

My point is simple: what do the good works of atheists prove?

It proves that you don't have to be religious to do good.

Or, that you don't need to believe in God to receive his Grace….

…The Father cares for all His sons, whether they know him or not

But only if they don't 'know' another?

Who is on the Lord's side? …. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour … and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men. Exodus 32:26-28

The LORD plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made. Exodus 32:25

Alex222 – When you said 'it's love really' what were you talking about?

deadlydarcy – Member

Perhaps something else was at work? Some higher power that we just don't understand?

Perhaps. I personally doubt it. I think you might be missing your own point. I think its daft to criticize the big bang if you don't know anything about the science behind it, but that's your choice. I think the question you really want to ask is what came before that? That's where the clever theologian will put a god. (I'm not saying they can still win the day but its that hardest one for us scientists to answer)

Or, that you don't need to believe in God to receive his Grace….

…The Father cares for all His sons, whether they know him or not

Even those that 'know' him aren't safe either:

Numbers 16

But on the morrow all the congregation of the children of Israel murmured against Moses and against Aaron, saying, Ye have killed the people of the LORD. (v.41)

Behold … the glory of the LORD appeared.
…
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Get you up from among this congregation, that I may consume them as in a moment. (v.42-45a)

And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a censer, and put fire therein from off the altar, and put on incense, and go quickly unto the congregation, and make an atonement for them: for there is wrath gone out from the LORD; the plague is begun. (v.46)

Now they that died in the plague were fourteen thousand and seven hundred, beside them that died about the matter of Korah. (v.49)

Lifer – Member

Or, that you don't need to believe in God to receive his Grace….

…The Father cares for all His sons, whether they know him or not

Even those that 'know' him aren't safe either:

Numbers 16

But on the morrow all the congregation of the children of Israel murmured against Moses and against Aaron, saying, Ye have killed the people of the LORD. (v.41)

Behold … the glory of the LORD appeared.
…
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Get you up from among this congregation, that I may consume them as in a moment. (v.42-45a)

And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a censer, and put fire therein from off the altar, and put on incense, and go quickly unto the congregation, and make an atonement for them: for there is wrath gone out from the LORD; the plague is begun. (v.46)

Now they that died in the plague were fourteen thousand and seven hundred, beside them that died about the matter of Korah. (v.49)

If you like it bloodthirsty the Old Testament is the place to go. Good quoting Lifer.

I was shocked to hear at the weekend that some schools in the North East built with funding from an evangelical car magnate now teach creationism.

Common sense alone dictates that the creation story (as told in the bible) is nonsense.

dk: sorry your cyclist argument doesn't have a leg to stand on.

If the existence of a one-legged cyclist doesn't prove or disprove the existence of one-legged cyclists, two-legged cyclists, bicycles or legs then how can you cite Christian good as evidence of a Christian God?

lifer when you said ouch after my post. I just thought I'd be nice and a bit stupid.

I don't see what the Bible has to do with a perfectly good argument about logic and Big Bang Bollocks. 😉

neninja – Member
I was shocked to hear at the weekend that some schools in the North East built with funding from an evangelical car magnate now teach creationism.

Common sense alone dictates that the creation story (as told in the bible) is nonsense.

There'll be plenty more if the Tories get into power! Also check out Waldorf – Steiner schools if you think Creationism is bad

http://www.waldorfcritics.org/active/concerns.html

If the existence of a one-legged cyclist doesn't prove or disprove the existence of one-legged cyclists, two-legged cyclists, bicycles or legs then how can you cite Christian good as evidence of a Christian God?

I think you're confusing evidence with proof. There is no proof for what I say, but I see it as evidence. Lots of evidence but no proof. And you might read the evidence differently, and I'm cool with that, not having any interest in persuading or converting people.

Do you understand the science behind it Lifer? I watched Brian Cox's series so in fairness, I have some understanding of it – that was a very informative programme. I also have Horizon on series link and am a big fan. So I think I can justifiably question a theory which sounds as ridiculous as Big Bang Bollocks.

deadlydarcy – Member

Do you understand the science behind it Lifer? I watched Brian Cox's series so in fairness, I have some understanding of it – that was a very informative programme. I also have Horizon on series link and am a big fan. So I think I can justifiably question a theory which sounds as ridiculous as Big Bang Bollocks.

How incredibly funny, you watched a couple of tv programmes about the big bang and now you are an astrophysicist. 😆

deadlydarcy I am your new stalker, I'm going to watch everything you post just in case you come out with more comedy magic such as this. I think I might write poetry about you. Do you post on any other sites, still as deadlydarcy or what are your other user names? Please.

I also think its worth pointing out you can believe in both creationism and evolution for this very reason

Right, quote from way back… Creationism isn't the same as religion – it's the doctrine that the entire earth was created as it is now by God. So it runs counter to evolution.

Seems perfectly reasonable to assume that life or indeed the universe were created by God in some form in the past. The big bang and the genesis of life are sufficiently unknown to allow for it. However it's also worth stressing that just because science doesn't know what happened at a particular point, it does not mean that anything else it claims to know is invalid.

If you ask most scientists how life started, they'll say they don't really know. This is a key difference between science and creationism. Creationists claim to have all the answers, scientists do not.

Horizon 😆

Okay you win

… also, Quantum Physics, wherein something can simultaneously exist and not exist. Intuitively, this seems like bollox to me.

http://www.bcseweb.org.uk/index.php/Main/EmmanuelSchoolsFoundation2

Good article about the pressure teachers are under to teach Creationism in non-state schools.