• This topic has 226 replies, 72 voices, and was last updated 2 years ago by pondo.
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  • Everywhere is burning or drowning…
  • p7eaven
    Free Member

    @kelvin

    It would also need a huge proportion of the workforce shifting into agriculture… but so would any attempt to “feed ourselves” without importing food… no matter what the diet of the population.

    Yet no matter how hard I look I can’t see anyone (there’s probably a few MGTOW doom-preppers pretending via social media that they exist on pure-grass-fed-pemmican whilst living in a cave in the remote North) making the argument for zero imports?

    Food security is a growing issue though, and it’s increasingly complex since leaving the EU.

    Climate change will affect the UK through extreme weather, where warmer wetter winters are forecast alongside drier summers, potentially reducing yields. For more information, see the GFS report:

    https://www.foodsecurity.ac.uk/challenge/uk-threat/

    As of last August (2020) the UK was only 18% self-sufficient in fruit, 55% in fresh vegetables and 71% in potatoes.

    So while the government are publicly ‘aiming’ to reduce reliance on meat and dairy how are they subsidising fruit and veg farmers by comparison?

    davros
    Free Member

    Will this report be enough to persuade to government to take action? Or will we carry on as normal with gentle nudging?

    Let’s all down tools for a mass climate strike!

    p7eaven
    Free Member

    ^ I think the thing is to look concerned on social media and carry on blaming the government and meanwhile Carry On As Normal. Maybe we could switch to semi-skimmed for a week, or car-share one time, just to see if it’s possible/see what those plant people are banging on about?

    Or flat denial? Have a read of the preponderance/flavour of social media comments that we are seeing outside of this lefty liberal marxist virtue-signalling echo-chamber good parish:

    davros
    Free Member

    As usual, the comments under the BBC article are rather depressing. It’s not our fault! Blame China! Etc 🤦

    kentishman
    Free Member

    Love the blame china for pollution.
    One of the main reasons the uk has reduced CO2 emissions is that alot of manufacturing has been outsourced to china to make stuff for us so its really our pollution.

    dyna-ti
    Full Member

    I wonder how this is going to affect Britain’s imports and exports with us now ignoring the giant market on our doorstep in favour of sending and receiving mulitple diesel electric generated commercial ships crisscrossing the oceans for thousands of miles.

    Maybe that’s why we’re getting rid of fossil fuel vehicles and gas central heating in an attempt to offset those increased carbon costs :?
    Meanwhile Russia, the United States,China and probably India it will be business as usual, especially the US. If they aren’t willing to give up their guns despite a huge death toll because of them, I dont see them readily getting rid of their gas guzzling muscle cars in favour of small electric runarounds.

    reeksy
    Full Member

    Government action…

    I’ve just read a good fictional book called Ministry for the future. It’s hard sci-fi. A really great author, and it looks at some of the upcoming global climate problems we’re likely to face and sees an international body (the Ministry) taking the lead on tackling them. And trying to twist the arms of governments around the world. I’d write a proper review if I wasn’t supposed to be in a meeting right now (ironically on the same subject!) but the Grauniad has made a half-hearted effort so read that instead:

    https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/nov/20/the-ministry-for-the-future-by-kim-stanley-robinson-review-how-to-solve-the-climate-crisis

    Actually, it’s worth reading just for the chapter where the entire Davos conference is held hostage :)

    kerley
    Free Member

    Meanwhile Russia, the United States,China and probably India it will be business as usual, especially the US. If they aren’t willing to give up their guns despite a huge death toll because of them, I dont see them readily getting rid of their gas guzzling muscle cars in favour of small electric runarounds.

    Nobody is going to be giving up anything in any country to anyway close to the levels of change that are required. Unless things are changed globally then nothing is ever going to be done about climate change and we know the chances of anything constructive being done globally. Just take a few things that would actually make a difference and it is obvious these are not going to be stopped and very difficult to change;
    – No use of gas or oil
    – No more shipping around the world
    – No more cruises/holidays abroad
    – No more meat

    twrch
    Free Member

    Love the blame china for pollution.
    One of the main reasons the uk has reduced CO2 emissions is that alot of manufacturing has been outsourced to china to make stuff for us so its really our pollution.

    How do you see a way out of that conumdrum? Either we need all the crap we currently buy, in which case we need to ensure it’s manufactured in as environmentally-friendly a way as possible (which would be easiest to achieve if we brought manufacturing back to the UK, and which in turn would probably need some regulations relaxed to make it even possible).

    Or – we don’t need that crap, in which case it’s fine that we don’t make any of it, and we really should be discouraging people from importing it by adding a CO2 tax or similar to imports.

    You could say that right now, it’s the worst of all worlds – we have destroyed our own ability to manufacture things, and instead buy everything from countries with practically no personal or environmental protections.

    Trimix
    Free Member

    Governments and the population will fail to act in time or by enough.
    We have passed 1.5, we will pass 2.

    On the way to 3 degrees warmer, the refugee crisis and local environmental crisis will result in more and more drastic problems, but all too late to make a difference.

    They will be so overwhelming that they will swamp any effort to do anything about the warming.

    Wars over resources, boarder clashes over refugees, daft and untried environmental experiments to change the climate. Current governments overthrown by extremist version or just collapsing into chaos. Economies will go into freefall and lots of countries will just be failed states. Island nations (that aren’t underwater) will just close their borders.

    reluctantjumper
    Full Member

    All of this is making me feel very guilty about having swapped my 4 mile cycle commute to my old job for driving anywhere up to an hour to new work.

    piemonster
    Full Member

    No more meat

    There’s an episode of Harry’s Farm that touches on this. I do think that there is potential for some meat production which is kinda not too bad, ethics aside.

    Livestock farming is nothing new, it’s the scale of consumption that’s the (primary) problem where you intensify practices leading to large areas of arable land being used to feed livestock.

    If your raising entirely grass fed stock then the impact is, allegedly, quite different. But the obvious knock on consequence is no cheap meat at the very least.

    This is the episode, I don’t really know enough on the subject to really put numbers against anything or offer any critique as to how accurate a picture is being given.

    Trimix
    Free Member

    Meat farming in say the US is not like farming here in the UK.

    Out there they have thousands of cattle, no grass and no water. Its also like that in the Middle East. I’ve seen farms in Bahrain where they have tens of thousands of Sheep, all having to be fed and watered from imported food and desalinated water.

    But they have to feed the population, so should they import it, thus causing carbon emissions due to shipping ? Seems every action in our current economy / way of life has a negative impact. We are not set up to change these things until its forced on us by the collapse of the economy / government.

    You have to recognise its precisely the economy/government/way of life that has caused the problem, so I don’t see the cause of the problem solving the problem.

    piemonster
    Full Member

    Meat farming in say the US is not like farming here in the UK.

    Well aware of that, I did hope I’d made the distinction that it’s only grass fed stock not intensive farming he’s talking about.

    crazy-legs
    Full Member

    Governments and the population will fail to act in time or by enough.
    We have passed 1.5, we will pass 2.

    On the way to 3 degrees warmer, the refugee crisis and local environmental crisis will result in more and more drastic problems, but all too late to make a difference.

    They will be so overwhelming that they will swamp any effort to do anything about the warming.

    Wars over resources, boarder clashes over refugees, daft and untried environmental experiments to change the climate. Current governments overthrown by extremist version or just collapsing into chaos. Economies will go into freefall and lots of countries will just be failed states. Island nations (that aren’t underwater) will just close their borders.

    This.
    At the moment, no Government wants to think too long term about this – some know it’s going to be a problem but either they think “it won’t be that bad” or they don’t really want to address it because by then someone else will be in power. And some have buried their heads in the sand about it.

    The other option, if you start saying all this, is total utter panic and chaos anyway. So right now we’re at the greenwashing stage – tell the public to buy electric cars or take one less bath a week or turn the thermostat down a degree. None of which is going to make the blindest bit of difference globally.

    zilog6128
    Full Member

    Governments and the population will fail to act in time or by enough.
    We have passed 1.5, we will pass 2.

    On the way to 3 degrees warmer, the refugee crisis and local environmental crisis will result in more and more drastic problems, but all too late to make a difference.

    if this is true – it is plausible IMO – then what is the point in any individual trying to do anything about it? About the only practical thing you can do is move to a house on a hill, at least you’ll be less at risk from flooding (that said, some houses-on-a-hill locally have been flooded a number of times lately, when the storm drains or whatever further up overflowed)

    Trimix
    Free Member

    Some of us are still on that boat going down the river in Egypt.
    Some have got off and are trying to make themselves feel better by buying an electric car or putting our amazon packaging in the correct bin.

    Meanwhile, most of us in the UK are complaining that due to Covid we cant fly to Spain for our god given right to have a holiday abroad. In the US all the Republican senators are still on the boat in Egypt.

    This story does not have a happy ending.

    crazy-legs
    Full Member

    if this is true – it is plausible IMO – then what is the point in any individual trying to do anything about it?

    If your house was on fire, would you want the fire brigade to at least attempt to put it out or would you rather they stood there saying “well, the kitchen is **** now so we should just let the whole place burn down”.

    Where that analogy ends though, is you can’t build a new planet…

    Trimix
    Free Member

    What can you do ? Depends on how old you are and where you are in life.

    My recommendation is to enjoy what’s left and don’t have kids.

    For those that want to do more than that, then you have to change the governments around the world, then the economies. Bit of an ask, so perhaps we do one step at a time. Vote Green here first ?

    Problem is our governments have designed the system so we only have a choice of two. Changing that will take far too long. Try the economic approach, pressure business to do the right thing, use social media to shame them into doing the right thing.

    TheBrick
    Free Member

    Where that analogy ends though, is you can’t build a new planet

    You tell Slartibartfast that.

    zilog6128
    Full Member

    If your house was on fire, would you want the fire brigade to at least attempt to put it out or would you rather they stood there saying “well, the kitchen is **** now so we should just let the whole place burn down”.

    That’s probably the worst analogy for climate change I’ve come across yet 🤣 Yes, obviously, I’d want them to put the fire out… but if they refuse, I can’t do it myself can I? Therefore there’s no point me trying to save the planet, is what you’re saying, as personally I can make no effective difference 🤔

    Vote Green here first ?

    Problem is our governments have designed the system so we only have a choice of two.

    I’ve voted Green for years, like you say though they don’t stand a chance, save getting the odd councillor in here and there.

    Trimix
    Free Member

    Basically you need to take matters into your own hands. You wont change the government by voting, you wont stop Amazon destroying the Amazon by not buying from them.

    So, do something direct like some of those climate action groups do. It has an immediate effect, its seen on the news and it means you can at least feel like you have tried hard instead of moaned hard.

    There are examples of direct action making a difference, like mass trespass, the Suffragettes, poll tax riots, etc. Small by comparison to changing the climate admittedly, but you can create a snowball effect. (if its fast enough the snowball wont melt).

    It will either help or make you feel better. Win win as they say.

    jambourgie
    Free Member

    My recommendation is to enjoy what’s left and don’t have kids.

    This. Nobody cares. Enjoy the decline.

    alpin
    Free Member

    do something direct like some of those climate action groups do

    And end up going to prison on terrorism charges…

    dyna-ti
    Full Member

    1– No use of gas or oil
    2– No more shipping around the world
    3– No more cruises/holidays abroad
    4– No more meat

    1. Could be problematic, i do like my gas fire, especially in winter, but if they reduce to cost of electricity I suppose a heater would be nearly as good.
    2. Cant happen, not with Boris looking to buy all our foodstuffs from far abroad.
    3. I’ve always been an exponent of holidays in the Uk, but then I live in Scotland which has some of the worlds best scenery and isn’t chock-a-block population wise.
    4. Ye Gads :shock: Nooooooooooooooooooo :shock: Sod future generations, If I can’t have my steak, life wouldn’t be worth living. :P

    seosamh77
    Free Member

    kentishman
    Free Member
    Love the blame china for pollution.
    One of the main reasons the uk has reduced CO2 emissions is that alot of manufacturing has been outsourced to china to make stuff for us so its really our pollution.

    Adjusted for trade, it puts china on about -10%, india is similar, so 90% of their emissions are domestically consumed.

    Does bring up the question of the morality of whether or not a seller should have responsibility or not, I’d think they do.

    pondo
    Full Member

    I see a council in Brighton and Hove have voted to remove a cycle lane on the Old Shoreham Road – well done, counsellors, well done. *slow handclap

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