• This topic has 226 replies, 72 voices, and was last updated 2 years ago by pondo.
Viewing 40 posts - 81 through 120 (of 227 total)
  • Everywhere is burning or drowning…
  • jivehoneyjive
    Free Member

    Guys, seriously, I wouldn’t worry, nature is gonna come up with a virus to mellow things out a bit and restore natural balance…

    Oh

    dazh
    Full Member

    and I can keep doing what I’m doing.

    And therein lies the problem. It’s nice for you that you can eat locally produced grass fed cows. If everyone did that we’d be even more f***** than with intensive farming. What makes you so special that your diet must be protected whilst everyone else has to change?

    p7eaven
    Free Member

    The biggest contributor to global warming/climate change is meat

    Where did you get that figure please? I looked at the EPA

    Global data:


    Link

    If we just (for instance) look at the US data:

    But as with a lot of simple pie charts – do they account for imports, offshore pollution, outsourcing, etc, etc? Consumption and production in a globalised economy is interconnected. It’s easy to point fingers at China’s factories or. Brazilian landowners but who has been buying all of that stuff for decades? I’m sure that the chicken factories polluting our rivers don’t buy all of their stainless steel machinery and electronics and soy feed from down the street…

    jivehoneyjive
    Free Member

    So where do billionaire space travel, military expansion and killer robots fit into all of this?

    twrch
    Free Member

    And for folk who can’t cycle, or will die if they don’t heat their homes? (the elderly) what happens to them?

    Sounds like they aren’t going to be sustainable then!

    Seriously though, I’m making a general point. You did say that before, and I didn’t answer then, because I found it hard to believe you were saying no-one can turn down their thermostats because grannie might die. If you think that grannie needs to be kept alive a few years longer in her nursing home, then turn up her thermostat. The rest of us will be just fine with a cooler house and another jumper. How do you think we got on before we started burning huge amounts of gas to heat our homes? If we absolutely must maintain our current expetations of living, then where will that heat come from? I would accuse you of “whataboutism”, but I find that phrase and concept totally ridiculous.

    crazy-legs
    Full Member

    I’m starting to think climate change is less of an issue than the drop in biodiversity and mass extinction is more of a concern for the future.

    The whole thing is interconnected. Problem is that humans are rubbish at seeing the bigger picture, especially when it does not directly affect us.
    More biodiversity, greater area of forest / coral reef etc would mitigate some of the climate stuff. Having a connected line of species means a decent balance is maintained – when you remove all the mid-level animals through chopping down the rainforest or fishing them out of the sea, you end up with plagues of insects/jellyfish that have nothing to prey on them anymore.*

    *that is a very simplified way of looking at things.

    stcolin
    Free Member

    Well, our power grid is much more “decarburised” than any of the places that manufacture all of the crap we used, so if we hadn’t killed off our manufacuring industry, then that would be a great solution

    Would it? I assume you know why it isn’t made here.

    So, what happens to the hundreds of millions of people emplyed in the manufacturing of these items? If we stop flying, what about all those people? Where do they all get emplyed? In the local artisan coffee shops?

    twrch
    Free Member

    And therein lies the problem. It’s nice for you that you can eat locally produced grass fed cows. If everyone did that we’d be even more f***** than with intensive farming. What makes you so special that your diet must be protected whilst everyone else has to change?

    How would we? There’s a limit to how much grass we can grow, and thus a pretty darn fixed amount of sustainable meat that can be produced. That sounds very reasonable to me. I already pay a lot for my dietary choices, because I belive that it is making a difference to the environment as well as the health of my family. If everyone ate the same way, sure the cost of meat would go up again, but then we would all be living within our dietary means.

    Also, FWIW, I don’t eat beef that often. What meat we do eat is mostly have chicken, sometimes pork, rarely beef (maybe once a month or less, and from a variety of cuts). Just to remove the perception that I’m demanding I continue my habits of eating grass-feed beef steak once a week.

    My diet is not the problem, nor does it need “protecting”. It’s intensive meat farming that’s the issue, and the resulting food products almost all end up in low-grade freezer meals and fast food and the like. That’s why I say – I’m on board with enforced reduction in environmentally unsustainable meat production, but as I do my best to avoid food from those sources, it shouldn’t affect me.

    kingmod
    Free Member

    The way most people and businesses pay for their smart phones, by contract, incentivises the regular replacement and upgrade of perfectly functional equipment. Not only is this bad for the environment it’s also more costly.

    twrch
    Free Member

    Would it? I assume you know why it isn’t made here.

    I do. It’s because the manufacture (and disposal) of all the stuff we buy and use every day is truly horrible to see, and we’ve legislated it out of our own countries and to places far far away. It’s also due to cheap labour.

    So, what happens to the hundreds of millions of people emplyed in the manufacturing of these items? If we stop flying, what about all those people? Where do they all get emplyed? In the local artisan coffee shops?

    Therein lies the problem. Maybe we could all be employed and live a reasonable lifetyle that looks similar to our current one, if we were all gainfully employed making, repairing, and recycling only high-quality products that last ages and don’t wreck the planet.

    However, it’s far easier to continue as we are, and insist that the latest in tech is also “sustainable” because someone plonked a few solar panels on the roof of a factory, and put a “recyclable” sticker on their goods.

    Bit of a condrum, eh?

    wobbliscott
    Free Member

    ut as with a lot of simple pie charts – do they account for imports, offshore pollution, outsourcing, etc, etc?

    It will be accounted for in other nations figures. The CO2 is generated somewhere so is attributed to someone.

    My diet is not the problem, nor does it need “protecting”. It’s intensive meat farming

    You sure….? Are you really positive that your plant based diet is totally sustainable and doesn’t draw the same demands from resources as meat does? The science doesn’t necessarily back that up. If you lie I the UK and eat anything more exotic than a cucumber then you’re just as part of the problem too most likely. But I guess we all pick and choose the science we offer up as evidence that supports our own point of view.

    p7eaven
    Free Member

    But I guess we all pick and choose the science we offer up as evidence that supports our own point of view.

    #notallofus

    Speaking for self If I found that my growing and cooking mushroom rashers or buying a plant-based bacon-substitute (instead of pork or turkey) was actually contributing more suffering, pollution and GHG emissions than pork bacon then I’d own it and change my (fortnightly) habit.

    But giving the impression that meat-eaters would only also eat plants as ‘exotic’ as a cucumber would be … silly

    twrch
    Free Member

    Are you really positive that your plant based diet is totally sustainable and doesn’t draw the same demands from resources as meat does?

    My diet is not “plant-based”. I didn’t think any of my previous comments gave that impression – I’m already defending eating meat!

    My diet has a fairly large dairy + egg content, as well as some meat. It’s as sustainably sourced as I can manage, although I could probably do better.

    I’m also fully aware of the issues with plant-based diets, that is, the majority of the appropriately “CO2-neutral” replacements for meat are truly terrible for the environment. That’s why I don’t eat like that.

    cookeaa
    Full Member

    There’s a reason the billionaires are buggering off to New Zealand.

    And space.

    Jeff and Elon will almost definitely save us from orbit… right?

    Part of me wants to just buy something with a thirsty V8 and enjoy the last few years before the apocalypse. A bigger part of me wants much more widespread changes to our energy use to try and avert it. But sadly I don’t think we are capable as a species.

    Our over-evolved brains gave us the infernal combustion engine, the gas turbine, Keynesian economics and marketing, the first two helped us erode the environment the latter two kept us from turning our collective intellect towards dealing with the problems we knew we were creating.

    We’re already going to miss our meagre climate change goals while the wealth, resources and tools necessary to effect useful change are focussed on replacing cars with less Smokey cars, delivering toys to our door, making your phone’s screen sharper and putting obscenely wealthy people into orbit…

    I don’t see us adapting fast enough to deal with inevitable climate disaster.

    The root fix would need to be societal, nothing happens without public support, right now the public want cheap leases on their Merc and flights to Florida…

    We’ve trapped the current generation of young people in the gig economy; working two minimum wage jobs to pay their boomer landlords exorbitant rents while they’re sold the myth of hard work yielding a better quality of life. So I’m sure when the millennials are going to get round to addressing the issues preceding generations shrugged off…

    ****…

    dyna-ti
    Full Member

    The difficulty with being a smart arse is that you have to have a few smarts, and proof read what you’ve written otherwise you end up just looking an arse, and a fool to boot.

    Its called humour, and clearly humour is something far from you ya miserable bawbag.

    Scottish volcanoes are extinct and New Zealand volcanoes are not. Hardly needs too great a stretch of the imagination to work that one out.
    Now, in Scottish parlance, awa an boil yer heid ya numpty.

    dazh
    Full Member

    You sure….? Are you really positive that your plant based diet is totally sustainable and doesn’t draw the same demands from resources as meat does?

    I am 100% sure that my 100% plant-based diet is vastly more sustainable than eating meat. It isn’t totally sustainable though because we don’t live in a sustainable economy. I am also sure that it’s one of the only things I can do individually (short of killing myself or becoming a hermit) which has a real impact in terrms of reducing carbon emissions. This is why I also advocate the reconfiguration of our economy to eliminate unnecessary work and consumption. It’s not enough to simply change your diet or stop flying, you also have to support changes to our society and economy and the politicians who propose to do that.

    p7eaven
    Free Member

    the majority of the appropriately “CO2-neutral” replacements for meat are truly terrible for the environment.

    Big claim. Are you comparing ‘like for like’, or doing a big old (usually around soy-production) cherry pick? If you factor in the fact that the majority of soy grown worldwide is used to feed livestock for human consumption, how does that weigh your argument against soy for (direct) human consumption, or against pea protein, lentilburgers (?) etc? Or are you making the argument for only eating locally-produced more sustainable food (whether plant or meat?) and refuse imported feeds/foods?

    twrch
    Free Member

    Big claim. Are you comparing ‘like for like’ or doing a big old cherry pick?

    I suppose you’re right. Still, you have to be very careful about where your plant-based substitutes come from. It’s easy to swap one form of envoronmental destruction and unsustainability for another.

    tenburner
    Full Member

    when big corporations continue as normal

    Which will be the case certainly as long as there’s a conservative government. Which, at this rate, will be for a long time. And it’ll keep people spouting out this trope and living by it-

    Its pretty much irrelevant what the individual does

    Fixed it for you. Still don’t get your point, its true so people will keep doing what they are doing?

    grum
    Free Member

    Can anyone find anything positive to say? This thread is seriously depressing reading.

    Not me! I used to think as things got worse we would collectively spring into action but now it just seems the billionaires are planning to fortify New Zealand and/or bugger off to space instead.

    gallowayboy
    Full Member

    Political trends towards isolationism and non cooperation – ?fuelled by public stress and worry about lifestyle compromises? – are also a barrier to the level of change we need to be making.
    On a practical level, we could start properly taxing waste (without disproportionately affecting lower incomes), make local public transport free, ban the sale of peat based compost and non sustainable timber products and invest properly in a low energy house building programme.
    How on earth do we turn around people’s expectations though?

    grum
    Free Member

    I am also sure that it’s one of the only things I can do individually (short of killing myself or becoming a hermit) which has a real impact in terrms of reducing carbon emissions.

    I hear this kind of thing a lot from vegans, and I think it’s a often a bit of a cop out. I think being vegan is a good thing, but I don’t think that means you can claim that you need a mobile phone, laptop, car, nice outdoor gear etc That’s not to say you have to be a hermit either, it’s all a sliding scale.

    We are all contributing to environmental destruction just by existing, and even not eating meat, desirable as it may be, is still pretty much fiddling around at the edges.

    I would happily ban industrial meat/dairy production in an instant, but it would be deeply unpopular when McDonalds costs £25 a pop or whatever

    twrch
    Free Member

    @gallowayboy

    Sounds great. I have no issue with environmental legislation, if it actually does what it is supposed to. Unfortunately, most of what is around at the moment seems to have the message “carry on as before, but be happy that all the new stuff you buy is now sustainable^tm!”

    dyna-ti
    Full Member

    I think being vegan is a good thing

    I always felt that veganism was the rebellious teenager of vegetarianism :?

    gallowayboy
    Full Member

    @twrch
    Yes, the market finds a way to subvert pretty much everything we do unfortunately. It does seem as though there is only a small part of the population willing or able to make the choices and changes required, I don’t know how we can resolve it.

    ahsat
    Full Member

    For those interested in future climate, the IPCC Sixth assessment report WG1 (the Physical Science Basis) will be released on Monday: https://www.ipcc.ch/assessment-report/ar6/ which will give the state-of-the-science understanding of the Earth’s future. The what we need to do about it will follow in later WG reports.

    p7eaven
    Free Member

    not eating meat, desirable as it may be, is still pretty much fiddling around at the edges

    You’re confusing a plant-based diet with veganism maybe. Veganism (by definition, not in all cases) is more about personal ethics and lifestyle.

    https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism

    But people (anyone, not just vegans) choosing a plant-based diet even is only ‘fiddling around the edges’ inasmuch as most people are still shovelling meat and dairy like it’s going out of fashion.

    It ain’t the be all and end all either, I agree, but that’s near to strawman argument. So many of this thread’s arguments are cartoonish/polarised in nature, ie this vs that, this extreme vs that extreme.

    Data is helpful. I’d like to see this tackled (or refuted) for instance:

    Researchers found that the companies’ emissions are reaching dangerous levels due to unregulated growth and governmental subsidies to ensure inexpensive production costs and supplies such as animal grain. The report calls for a reduction of greenhouse gases by 38 billion tons by 2050. The report states that many of the largest meat and dairy producers do not report emissions, and many are increasing production with no efforts in place to reduce their emissions. If production remains unregulated, by 2050, meat and dairy farms will account for 80 percent of the budgeted greenhouse gas emissions.

    I think it’s a bit rich picking on ‘vegans’ as being ‘cop-outs’. I do know a few (married to one) and IMO they are definitely among the people most likely to be lobbying governments as well as making ethical/sustainable personal choices and ‘sacrifices’. Ironically, they are also the least militant when it comes to picking on other people at the table for their dietary choices. ymmv, as will some noisy activists.

    https://www.pcrm.org/news/health-nutrition/meat-and-dairy-surpass-oil-companies-largest-pollutants

    guest1
    Free Member

    I listened to a BBC environmental podcast recently, where one of the contributors said that the best thing that can happen in the UK is for everybody to do something to change their ‘ways’ rather than a few people doing everything, and to me that makes good sense.
    Nobody I asking us all to become ‘Greta’,or to live in a cave.

    Examples were:
    – Change immediately to a renewable energy tariff- it will send a message to the power companies that we no longer want them to burn fossil fuels. If enough people do this, they will have to change.
    – Reduce the amount you drive/fly. Think ‘is this journey essential, or can I do a similar activity more locally
    – eat less meat (not necessarily no meat, just less)
    Turn your thermostat down a small amount. Save yourself some money by wearing a jumper (your house/office doesn’t need to be cold, just not 23C..)

    If everyone did this, it would make a sizeable difference, without really reducing the quality of life.

    My addition to this would be to buy less ‘things’ (which might also mean you don’t need to work so many hours to pay for them!) E.g. do you REALLY need a soundbar to ‘improve’ your television sound, does your phone REALLY need to be replaced. Does your 2 year old car REALLY need replaced?
    And being an mtb forum.. Will a new handlebar, crank, gps, carbon wheelset etc REALLY make your ride more enjoyable. Is your ride miserable with your existing kit, or are you just trying to look cool to others?

    Individual small changes will help, and we don’t need government intervention to make thuis happen. Don’t worry about your neighbours in their big SUV – if more people stop buying them (or keep their existing cars for longer), the sooner car manufacturers will stop making those type of vehicles!

    v7fmp
    Free Member

    @p7eaven – apologies, that should of said ‘one of’ The biggest contributor to global warming/climate change is meat

    binners
    Full Member

    Can anyone find anything positive to say?

    Its Friday and I’m going to the pub :D

    I hear this kind of thing a lot from vegans

    I don’t know how. They’re normally so reticent in talking about their dietary choices that you’d never know they were vegans at all

    :)

    grum
    Free Member

    @p7eaven this is from the conclusion of the report which your article references:

    Farmers can and should, if stable markets and decent prices are guaranteed, supply moderate quantities of meat and milk into local food systems. But they do not enjoy these conditions. And instead of having to bear the costs of intensifying their emissions to protect the growth agendas of the big meat and dairy companies, farmers can, with the support of public programmes, shift to agroecological practices and mixed farming systems that can lower the emissions and overall environmental footprints of their farms, as well as provide much better living conditions for animals.

    https://grain.org/article/entries/5976-emissions-impossible-how-big-meat-and-dairy-are-heating-up-the-planet

    I can’t really argue with any of it but it doesn’t seem to be suggesting we have to eliminate meat eating completely.

    grum
    Free Member

    I think it’s a bit rich picking on ‘vegans’ as being ‘cop-outs’. I do know a few (married to one) and IMO they are definitely among the people most likely to be lobbying governments as well as making ethical/sustainable personal choices and ‘sacrifices’. Ironically, they are also the least militant when it comes to picking on other people for their dietary choices. ymmv

    I actually agree with all that but I still think there’s a bit of cognitive dissonance going on with people who don’t eat meat/dairy sometimes thinking that it gives them a free pass on other stuff like owning the latest mobile phone or whatever. I know lots of vegans though, and I don’t expect them all to be perfect.

    p7eaven
    Free Member

    I can’t really argue with any of it but it doesn’t seem to be suggesting we have to eliminate meat eating completely.

    That wasn’t my argument. I wasn’t making the comparison I was just refuting the ‘cop-out’ accusation.

    My point was that (anyone) choosing not to eat meat (and dairy) could only realistically be viewed as ‘fiddling around the edge’ because the vast majority of us are shovelling it and chucking it (meat and dairy) like it’s going out of fashion, and also the governments are subsidising this behaviour/culture around agriculture.

    I’ll certainly agree that some (many?) plant-based dieters (or vegans) may have ‘cognitive dissonance’ about owning smartphones but isn’t that just the ‘well, you think you’re so bloody perfect’ stramwan? Did we get GHG/pollution figures for smartphones vs meat and dairy industry? Whataboutism needs data unless it’s just a cute phrase to smack the chops of stereotypes?

    twrch
    Free Member

    @guest1

    Careful, you’ll be accused of killing granny!

    That aside, you’ve described my position perfectly.

    dyna-ti
    Full Member

    that should of said ‘one of’ The biggest contributor to global warming/climate change is meat

    I would have said its more about consumerism than defining a single cause.

    ehrob
    Free Member

    that report will be a sobering read ahsat, they always are.

    yep, the world’s in a state. have we gone past the tipping point? quite possibly. but that doesn’t need to stop you from thinking and acting positively about this stuff. make a list, just a few small things, give them a try. if that works, add more stuff to it.

    how about a career change to something that might help more?
    eat less meat, dairy and fish?
    not fly?
    give up some of my time to some useful local projects?
    next time there’s an election, of any sort, vote for whoever has the strongest environmental credentials?

    you don’t want to do any of those things? fine. find some stuff that helps that will work better for you instead. anything is better than nothing, and anything is better than slagging others for not doing x, y and z (or indeed slagging them off for doing x, y and z).

    the reason i will keep trying to do the best i can is because even if i never get to see it, there is still a better chance for a better future for someone if i try to do the right things, as opposed to doing nothing (or worse). if i can convince a few people along the way, even better. if its not enough, then i’ve done my best.

    this idea that we all somehow need to “solve” climate change causes decision paralysis. we can’t solve it. its happening. all we can do is try to change our behaviour where we can to try and help minimise the effects. if enough people do it, i hope that governments and business will follow.

    ayjaydoubleyou
    Free Member

    Dont forget, all you vegan and plant based guys are apparently going to live 10-20% longer than us meat eaters. Have you considered this in your calculations?

    grum
    Free Member

    I’ll certainly agree that some (many?) plant-based dieters (or vegans) may have ‘cognitive dissonance’ about owning smartphones but isn’t that just the ‘well, you think you’re so bloody perfect’ stramwan?

    Kinda, I was mainly just refuting DazH’s suggestion that unless you ‘become a hermit or kill yourself’ stopping eating meat and dairy is the only useful thing you can do. I have heard similar from other people and I’m not convinced it’s very helpful.

    binners
    Full Member

    Dont forget, all you vegan and plant based guys are apparently going to live 10-20% longer than us meat eaters.

    They don’t actually live any longer, it just seems like they do :D

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