Viewing 40 posts - 41 through 80 (of 224 total)
  • Europe…
  • wiggles
    Free Member

    An anti EU party voting against more EU regulations. Who’d ha ve thought it?

    Atlaz already explained my point. UKIP have the worst attendance record of all MEPs in the entire EU then even if they do turn up they will vote against anything which gives more powers to the EU regardless of the circumstances, as in the ivory example given.

    They really are not going to anything to make any changes happen. Peoe just seem to think that if you want the country to leave the EU then you had to vote for UKIP and there was no other option….

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    Explain to me how this is arrogant …..

    If you can’t see how suggesting that the “British public don’t necessarily understand coalition politics” but that you on the other do, is rather arrogant, then I’m afraid I won’t be able to explain it to you.

    Perhaps you like to explain to me how it isn’t arrogant ?

    You’re right that the Tories didn’t win the election outright but with no Lib Dem vote I suspect that’s what would have happened.

    With no LibDem vote Labour’s share would have increased. There isn’t much evidence that most previous LibDem voters would have voted Tory as a second choice. In fact the evidence suggests the opposite, ie, that most LibDem voters have a specific dislike of Tories.

    Which explains to a great extent why ever since the LibDems jumped into bed with the Tories they have been hammered in the polls.

    ratherbeintobago
    Full Member

    With no LibDem vote Labour’s share would have increased. There isn’t much evidence that most previous LibDem voters would have voted Tory as a second choice.

    Even with people tactically voting LD?

    I agree with you that a Lib-Lab coalition would have been a much more natural fit, but there were two fairly major problems there (one being Gordon Brown, and the other being that Lab didn’t have enough MPs to make it work).

    the “British public don’t necessarily understand coalition politics” but that you on the other do, is rather arrogant,

    Bear in mind that, not being old enough to remember our last coalition government (ie. WW2) this is my first experience of coalition government too. I don’t pretending to understand it any better than the next person.

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    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    UKIP have the worst attendance record of all MEPs in the entire EU

    That sounds awful……how did they manage to come first in the European elections last Thursday ?

    And how did the party who are most enthusiastic about the EU manage to come fifth, when on the same day they got twice as many votes in the local English elections ?

    ratherbeintobago
    Full Member

    That sounds awful……how did they manage to come first in the European elections last Thursday ?

    Protest voting? It will be interesting to see what happens in the general election next year…

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    What were they protesting about ? Not the EU surely ?

    wiggles
    Free Member

    Because most people don’t look past the headlines and decide they don’t like immigrants or the EU so it must mean they have to vote UKIP rather than looking into the fact they won’t actually do anything…

    IE the green party manifesto includes an in-out referendum but nobody noticed that because they aren’t in the news every other day for saying racist comments etc

    (I did not vote green or UKIP though)

    zippykona
    Full Member

    A protest vote that involves voting for a banker called Nigel.
    That really showed it to The Man.

    ratherbeintobago
    Full Member

    A protest vote that involves voting for a banker called Nigel.
    That really showed it to The Man.

    Aye.

    wiggles
    Free Member

    Democracy is ruined by the fact so many people are stupid…(and nige knows this very well and used it for his gain)

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    most people don’t look past the headlines and decide they don’t like immigrants or the EU

    If the reason UKIP received the highest amount of votes last Thursday in the Euro elections was something as simple as people not liking immigrants then the BNP would have scored huge electoral successes for many years.

    Racism against immigrants has never been popular in the UK and any party expressing those views have suffered electorally.

    If immigration was an issue this Euro election then it was with regards to the EU’s open door policy, not animosity towards immigrants.

    wiggles
    Free Member

    That is why I said or the EU…

    I’m not trying to imply all people who voted UKIP are racist. Just seems everyone has default voted for UKIP as they don’t want to stay in the EU, other parties offer this referendum whilst also actually having other policies.

    ninfan
    Free Member

    Chukka Umunna already on BBC this morning saying this was not a vote about Europe…

    atlaz
    Free Member

    So say the UK imposes a closed door policy, how does that work for the UK in future? Do all the immigrants already in the UK get kicked out as Farrage has said? Do all the UK expats in Europe (between 1 and 2 million of them) get told to bugger off back to Blighty?

    Given the UK immigration system for work permits etc is already an overloaded mess, how will that handle the upsurge in requests? What about skilled labour like medical staff of whom the NHS employs a load be handled?

    I’m not sure anyone who says “We need to limit immigration” has ever given much detail of how it would actually work,

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    I’m not sure anyone who says “We need to limit immigration” has ever given much detail of how it would actually work

    Fantastic. We must have an open door policy and allow anyone who wants to come to the UK permission to do so, because anything else is too complicated !

    EDIT : Actually it’s not that simple, the open door policy only applies to EU nationals, would-be immigrants from other areas such as the West Indies, Africa, or Asia, can sod off…….we can apply complicated immigration processes to keep them out. If we want to.

    mogrim
    Full Member

    So say the UK imposes a closed door policy, how does that work for the UK in future? Do all the immigrants already in the UK get kicked out as Farrage has said? Do all the UK expats in Europe (between 1 and 2 million of them) get told to bugger off back to Blighty?

    It’s the second question that’s vaguely worrying me, I’d probably end up having to apply for Spanish nationality if only to avoid having to renew visas etc. on a regular basis.

    ninfan
    Free Member

    So say the UK imposes a closed door policy,

    Who says thats the inevitable outcome?

    A more realistic scenario is a significant revision on the qualifying criteria/period for benefits, social housing, NHS treatment etc.

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    it was with regards to the EU’s open door policy, not animosity towards immigrants.

    So they hate the fact they can come here not the fact they have come here?

    Drac
    Full Member

    A more realistic scenario is a significant revision on the qualifying criteria/period for benefits, social housing, NHS treatment etc.

    UKIP aim to get rid of the NHS so you don’t need to worry about that as only the rich will be able to afford health care.

    zippykona
    Full Member

    Give it 10 years when all the countries of Europe have fractured into little countries bickering with their exes. Mr Putin can then gently roll westwards at his leisure.
    When mainland countries start talking about bloody foreigners they mean us. Not only a gypsy from some place we’ve never heard of.
    Who are we going to moan too when our charming holiday homes in the Dordogne are burnt out or daubed with Rosbifs go home?

    badnewz
    Free Member

    I’m not sure anyone who says “We need to limit immigration” has ever given much detail of how it would actually work,

    There has been quite a bit of research into the pros and cons of “balanced” migration. Most of it can be found on the website balancedmigration.org

    MSP
    Full Member

    We already have balanced migration, it is just a load of scare stories that have allowed all the racists to voice their opinions.

    wiggles
    Free Member

    Just to add… I hope all the people who voted UKIP are aware and happy with their plans for a flat rate 32% income tax. Will really help the help all the people who get the jobs the immigrants have been stealing 😉

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    A more realistic scenario is a significant revision on the qualifying criteria/period for benefits, social housing, NHS treatment etc.

    What on earth do you think it currently is then?

    No one gets benefits on first arrival here not even brits returning home

    slackalice
    Free Member

    If voting changed anything, they wouldn’t let us do it

    Mark Twain

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    A more realistic scenario is a significant revision on the qualifying criteria/period for benefits, social housing, NHS treatment etc.

    I thought your political mentor Dan Hannan was opposed to benefits, social housing, and NHS treatment? As is UKIP, probably, no one quite knows for sure.

    So why have a significant revision on the qualifying criteria/period for things which don’t exist ?

    It doesn’t seem to make much sense 😕

    anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    Can those who like to theorise on these matter explain why they think
    the euro vote was different to the local council vote was it down to the voting system and if so should we change ours and which would be better. Or was it down to a lack of influence real or otherwise in one of the votes? Or was it just down to the areas voting? It all seems a bit odd to me.

    ninfan
    Free Member

    No one gets benefits on first arrival here

    I don’t believe anyone suggested they did

    So why have a significant revision on the qualifying criteria/period for things which don’t exist ?

    Well, if they don’t exist anymore, then that would certainly be a significant revision to the qualifying criteria wouldn’t it?

    teamhurtmore
    Free Member

    Fantastic. We must have an open door policy and allow anyone who wants to come to the UK permission to do so, because anything else is too complicated !

    Or perhaps because freedom of movement of people is one of the four fundamental pillars on which the EU is based?

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    Well, if they don’t exist anymore, then that would certainly be a significant revision to the qualifying criteria wouldn’t it?

    Good answer.

    So according to you and Dan Hannan no one should qualify for benefits, social housing, and NHS treatment. How exactly does that relate to your comment regarding immigration ?

    Are you suggesting that would-be immigrants come to the UK for benefits, social housing, and NHS treatment ? Is that what Dan Hannan and the Daily Mail have been telling you ?

    molgrips
    Free Member

    for those that still think they can force decisions on “the little people

    So the electorate should make the decisions then? 10 minutes each morning flicking through a biased publication is enough information to decide on crucial policies is it?

    ninfan
    Free Member

    Are you suggesting that would-be immigrants come to the UK for benefits, social housing, and NHS treatment ?

    Nope, never happens, glad we’re all agreed!

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    Can those who like to theorise on these matter explain why they thinkthe euro vote was different to the local council vote was it down to the voting system and if so should we change ours and which would be better.

    Many folk hate the EU so they will do a protest vote as they think the parliament has no real power – PR does encourage a protest vote as your vote actually counts . I vote differently in EU elections than national ones for example.

    As for local WTF has wanting to be out of the EU got to do with being a local councillor? Only die hard UKIPers will vote for them there I assume so you see their core vote – the protest votes

    Its nothing more than educated guess//wild stab in the dark

    bikebouy
    Free Member

    Well I fell asleep listening to the votes coming in and now wake to find the UK’s purple.

    Interesting times, thankfully.

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    Nope, never happens, glad we’re all agreed!

    So why mention your very Daily Mail reference to immigrants and benefits, social housing, and NHS treatment then ?

    Care to clarify ?

    slowoldman
    Full Member

    ernie_lynch – Member

    Explain to me how this is arrogant …..

    If you can’t see how suggesting that the “British public don’t necessarily understand coalition politics” but that you on the other do, is rather arrogant, then I’m afraid I won’t be able to explain it to you.

    Perhaps you like to explain to me how it isn’t arrogant ?[/quote]
    I think ernie has a point. Our politics (and indeed our legal system) are based on confrontation and competition. Government versus opposition (prosecution versus defence). We have all grown up with that and it’s broadly accepted (certainly if that shambolic referendum on reform was anything to go by). So I think it’s probably broadly true that “British public don’t necessarily understand coalition politics”, since none of us have experienced it. Even the current government isn’t a true coalition. In my book, coalition is where all MPs who have been voted in form “the administration” irrespective of party. There is no “opposition” as such.

    konabunny
    Free Member

    i’d personally go round to every single one of the 66.5% of the non voters and say to them to gtf out, if they cannot be bothered to vote (or at least spoil/mark their papers otherwise) then they have no right to live in Scotland.

    If between them the political parties can’t present policies and field candidates that are worth those 66.5% showing up to the polls to endorse them, then what right do those parties have to go to Strasbourg?

    IanW
    Free Member

    I don’t think the people who have voted UKIP here or NF in France give a hoot about Europe, the votes are protests at an open door immigration policies changing communities.

    ninfan
    Free Member

    Care to clarify ?

    Because like it or not – thats a huge proportion of the reason UKIP romped home

    its perfectly possible for ‘benefits’ (etc) not to be the ‘primary’ reason people initially come to the UK, but for them to still be a real issue that is open to either abuse or legal but unintended and unforeseen outcomes – and that that weakens faith in the system as a whole.

    A good example would be Child benefit being payable for children resident in another country.

    GEDA
    Free Member

    I like the EU. I like Europe. I love the UK but it seems to be now populated by people who want to blame everything on someone else and complain.

Viewing 40 posts - 41 through 80 (of 224 total)

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