eugenics – how comfy are we?

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  • eugenics – how comfy are we?
  • yunki
    Member

    Toby Young, Bilderberg, humanity is exponentially increasing and has done since day dot. There have been hiccups in this steady rise and these causes are now the tenements followed by our leaders.
    These people believe religiously that humanity is out of control. The use of War, Famine, Disease and Austerity, as documented by Rothschild, applied with geographic discrimination may halt this.
    That’s why they are crashing the NHS. That’s why there must be more War. This is why vaccines are being pumped into our Western societies, why fracking must be done, neonicotinoids for bees, Single shot reproductive GMOs, closing of libraries, promotion of classless celebrities…..the list goes on and on and on.

    We often see each other here chuckling about Darwinism and baying for the death of bike thieves, bad drivers, drug addicts and neighbours whose cats shit on our lawns amongst other things.

    With the rise of the unapologetic right wing, unashamed bigotry and unembarrassed xenophobia, are we seeing a societal shift towards a more pragmatic, but ultimately quite killy world view?

    How comfortable are we with this solution?

    Rorschach
    Member

    I preferred Annie Lennox’s solo stuff.

    Premier Icon Drac
    Subscriber

    They often have good deals on TVs.

    yunki
    Member

    And with that one joke, you have just redeemed yourself from a place on The Naughty List

    Premier Icon wallop
    Subscriber

    I preferred Annie Lennox’s solo stuff.

    They often have good deals on TVs.

    😆

    5thElefant
    Member

    Not sure if it falls into eugenics. Probably replaces it, but…

    I’m all for genetic modification. It’s already becoming an underground hacking thing. No doubt some pioneers are using it for sports use. I look forward to hacking my genes in a decade or so. And there is absolutely nothing the state can do about it.

    whitestone
    Member

    Err, the human population is not rising exponentially, in most regions the growth is slowing down, the exception being the continent of Africa.

    Tenements? Did you mean “tenets”?

    2/10

    deviant
    Member

    Current right wing attitudes are a response to 40 yrs of increasingly liberal and left wing politics….read up on the Centennials (the 15-20 yr olds coming through now)….they are supposed to be the most conservative generation since the 1950s….these things tend to be cyclical, I wouldn’t worry about it.

    nerd
    Member

    What’s wrong with vaccines? They keep people alive and everything else on your list kills people.

    yunki
    Member

    these things tend to be cyclical, I wouldn’t worry about it.

    cool 🙂

    oldnpastit
    Member

    Eugenics seems to usually be about white people finding a good rationale for killing (unborn) black people.

    I’m not entirely comfortable with that notion, or the people who espouse it.

    EDIT: I assume we’re talking about the conference Toby Young attended last year?

    Premier Icon nedrapier
    Subscriber

    What’s wrong with vaccines? They keep people alive and everything else on your list kills people.

    They’re too good. But if we overuse them and they allow much greater opportunity for bacteria to become resistant, and when we run out of vaccines that work, we’re back to days of being killed by an infected cut from doing the gardening, or falling off our bikes.

    I think that’s where he was coming from.

    5thElefant
    Member

    Eugenics seems to usually be about white people finding a good rationale for killing (unborn) black people.

    It may be used an excuse for that, but it’s just selective breeding isn’t it?

    Not very practical. Gene editing is though.

    avdave2
    Member

    They’re too good. But if we overuse them and they allow much greater opportunity for bacteria to become resistant, and when we run out of vaccines that work, we’re back to days of being killed by an infected cut from doing the gardening, or falling off our bikes.

    I think you might be thinking of antibiotics – probably as you’ve been brain damaged by MMR or something 🙂

    Premier Icon Kryton57
    Subscriber

    we’re back to days of being killed by an infected cut from doing the gardening, or falling off our bikes.

    Theres a vaccine to cure falling off your bike? Where do i get some?

    Liked the stuff he did with The Vaselines more. A big Captain America, Vaselines, BMX Bandits thing would have been a sight to see.

    edlong
    Member

    The tenets of eugenics are far from the preserve of mouth frothing right wingers – not so long ago (and not for the first time) there were people on here trotting out the “black people are naturally better at running fast” guff on a thread that I can’t locate right now.

    There have also been a few comments on the occasional “private schools are / aren’t evil” threads we have (a couple of which were my fault, sorry) along the lines of people from rich and successful backgrounds being more successful at school / university / life due to intrinsic, inherited characteristics rather than massive and overwhelming privilege.

    They’re [vaccines] too good. But if we overuse them and they allow much greater opportunity for bacteria to become resistant, and when we run out of vaccines that work, we’re back to days of being killed by an infected cut from doing the gardening, or falling off our bikes.

    You’re not a scientist, I’m guessing?

    Premier Icon rone
    Subscriber

    Current right wing attitudes are a response to 40 yrs of increasingly liberal and left wing politics.

    Aren’t current right wing attitudes the product of current right wing attitudes?

    bainbrge
    Member

    “black people are naturally better at running fast” guff

    At the risk of outing myself as a closet racist, I thought there was some scientific basis linked to the proportions of fast v slow twitch muscle fibres? Or is that rubbish and actually the same variability exists within caucasians too?

    tjagain
    Member

    [Devils advocate mode on]

    We have stopped evolution by good medicine. Better educated people have less children. Are we heading for this?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Marching_Morons

    [Devils advocate mode off]

    Tricky issue really but the end point of eugenics is sterilizing undesirables. Who decides who is undesirable? Who watches the watcher?. Its a malignant philosophy

    Premier Icon theotherjonv
    Subscriber

    I’m not going to out myself in any way, just asking an open question here and I’ll be honest, i don’t know the answer or indeed if there is one.

    We rely heavily on (biomedical) science to treat and cure the diseases of modern society. We zap cancers with radiation and chemicals, and we treat diabetes and epilepsy with drugs. We carry out medical procedures to correct birth defects, such as babies with heart defects, to other more minor stuff like tongue-tie, club foot or cleft pallet. We laser our eyes to correct sight defects. Yet when it is suggested that we pre-treat to prevent babies being born with these conditions, or now as part of genome sequencing and the effect certain genes have on us, that we selectively breed out these aspects it’s seen in some quarters as meddling with nature.

    Every life is precious and we should all be valued as individuals. But why is it accepted to treat some post birth but not pre?

    Discuss?

    Premier Icon v8ninety
    Subscriber

    Complicated subject but one thing is clear; humanity (in the safe first world, at least) has broken ‘natural selection’. Successful propagation of the species is not limited to the ‘fittest’.

    In many counties populations are declining.
    Birth rate in US is 1.84, Japan 1.46. Germany 1.5.

    Needs to be 2 to maintain population levels.

    tjagain
    Member

    deviant – Member

    Current right wing attitudes are a response to 40 yrs of increasingly liberal and left wing politics.

    simply incorrect. Its 49 years of increasingly right wing policies. Universal healthcare? Publicly owned utilities, free education for all are all left wing ideals that came about 40+ years ago and have been pushed back from the mainstream to the left wing fringes as the right becomes ever more powerful

    jimjam
    Member

    tjagain – Member

    deviant – Member

    Current right wing attitudes are a response to 40 yrs of increasingly liberal and left wing politics.

    simply incorrect. Its 49 years of increasingly right wing policies. [/quote]

    You’re both wrong. Increased politicization of daily life, politics as news, the rise of the internet and social media have led to much more polarisation of political opinion.

    You’ll always have people with liberal or conservative leanings, they are character traits. There’s no more of one or the other now than 10 years ago. The difference is you are being fed negative sterotypes of the group you don’t like by the news medium you’ve decided aligns with your own world view.

    5thElefant
    Member

    Needs to be 2 to maintain population levels.

    With automation and AI coming Japan has got the right idea.

    Premier Icon matt_outandabout
    Subscriber

    We have a P not an E next to our name. 😉

    tjagain
    Member

    jimjam – I have been a political geek for more than 40 years. the centre of UK politics has moved a long way right in that time hence Corbyn – a leftish but mainstream in European terms politician – can be seen as a far left person when his views would have been centrist in the labout party of 40 years ago and are completely mainstream and normal across most of Europe. Heath would not be able to be leader of the troy party now – his views are far too left wing.

    TiRed
    Member

    When it gets to MC1R homozygotes – I’m out.

    (genetic joke for us purebred gingers).

    Seriously, there is a place for embryo selection based on serious genetic diseases such as muscular dystrophy (which the NHS recognises already), but since the vast majority of phenotypes are not at all well-understood, it’s a nonsense based on scientific ignorance.

    tjagain
    Member

    bainbrge – Member

    “black people are naturally better at running fast” guff

    At the risk of outing myself as a closet racist, I thought there was some scientific basis linked to the proportions of fast v slow twitch muscle fibres? Or is that rubbish and actually the same variability exists within caucasians too? [/quote]

    There are some genetic differences – not absolutes – and the overlap between races is bigger than the differences and lack of equality of opportunity explains much of the different rates of take up of sports ( black UK kids rarely have the opportunity to ride horses so are under-represented in equestrian sports whereas running is for anyone who can buy a pair trainers)

    Afro Caribbean people are more likely to sink than Caucasians so its harder for them to be good at swimming but again afro carribean people tend to have longer legs for their bodyweight / height than caucasians and a longer heel so are better at running ( not all afrocarribeans even – some areas of africa this is true some it is not)

    Horrendous oversimplification and social factors are far more influential in what sports folk take up than racial characteristics are but there are some genetic differences which give a slight tendency for some races to be better at some sports than others.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    humanity is exponentially increasing and has done since day dot

    No, it’s not. It was pretty stable for millennia, then it shot up, now it’s levelling off.

    And you need an average of more than 2 kids per couple to keep the population stable, to offset those who die before they get to adulthood. But yes, all we need to do is have two or occasionally 3 kids per couple and we’ll level off. And there’s evidence this is happening already.

    some areas of africa this is true some it is not

    Correct. There is more genetic diversity in sub-Saharan Africa than the entire rest of the world put together – Europeans, Asians, Americans, the lot. They just all have dark skin so we tend to lump them together.

    Nico
    Member

    [Devils advocate mode on]

    We have stopped evolution by good medicine.

    Or:
    We have altered the environment from that in which we evolved. We started doing that a long time ago – cutting down trees, building bridges, using fire and so on. Now we’ve gone further with all those computers and things so we are starting to evolve wheels instead of feet, shrunken brains that just read the results of a google search, and, most famously, spavined linguistic skills that can’t work out that i.e. doesn’t mean “for example”.

    Stopping evolution comes into the category “quite hard”.

    tjagain
    Member

    Nico – a thousand years ago type i diabetics would have died before adulthood so not pass their genes on. Now they live to adulthood so can . Thats the sort of thing I mean

    whitestone
    Member

    spavined linguistic skills that can’t work out that i.e. doesn’t mean “for example”.

    I use i.e.g – covers all cases 😉

    Premier Icon nickc
    Subscriber

    We have stopped evolution by good medicine

    Too early to tell, hom hab was around for well over a million years and didn’t evolve much at all. Modern hom sap have only been around for 200k years.

    tjagain
    Member

    OK slowed it then. People with poor genes now get to breed when 1000 years ago they wouldn’t. Mind you gaia is getting her own back with the rise in autoimmune diseases and cancer 😉

    We haven’t stopped evolution by good medicine, evolution stopped when we started to come together as tribes and manipulate our environment to suit our needs rather than evolving ourselves to suit our environment.

    Evolution is all about the continuation of traits that increase the individuals chances of survival and therefore spreading their DNA. It operates over hundreds of generations in most cases. So as soon as it became the case where as a human your ability to be able to outrun a Sabre Toothed Tiger no longer mattered, then evolution through natural selection effectively stopped. The randomness inherent within our DNA will now run rampant without any filtering mechanism because ‘physically inferior’ or even ‘mentally inferior’ people now have as good a chance to survive, live full lives and multiply and continue their genetic line as more ‘superior’ people.

    I would have thought that this is ultimately a good thing and a true sign of intelligent life. Whales and Pigs are intelligent, but still subjected to the survival of the fittest cycle. We have broken free of that and in effect taken control of our own destinies.

    Unfortunately the downside to this is that sometimes those who are mentally inferior rise to the top and become leaders of the most powerful nations in the world.

    paton
    Member

    [video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8x98KFcMJeo[/video]

    Premier Icon stavromuller
    Subscriber

    The two main problems with eugenics is a) The people that expound it don’t think it applies to them being filtered out of the gene pool and b) the people that expound it would never be able to sell the idea to the people they think it should be applied to.

    walleater
    Member

    Churchill was a big fan so it must be good….right?

    BillMC
    Member

    If anyone is interested, John Carey’s ‘The Intellectuals and the Masses’ is brilliant on this.

    Premier Icon slowoldman
    Subscriber

    In many counties populations are declining.
    Birth rate in US is 1.84, Japan 1.46. Germany 1.5.
    Needs to be 2 to maintain population levels.

    Do population levels need to be maintained?

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