EU Referendum – are you in or out?

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  • EU Referendum – are you in or out?
  • Premier Icon ahwiles
    Subscriber

    … So what is it that we have that the EU needs?

    Airbus need Rolls-Royce engines, not insignificant.

    thecaptain
    Member

    I know people in Europe are a bit concerned about the UK not participating in future EU science e.g. Horizon2020. Yes, in simplistic terms it means more money for them but they are actually farsighted and thoughtful enough to care more about the quality of the research (and losing a strong UK collaborator would weaken their bid after all, it’s not pure altruism on their part). But there’s nothing really anyone can do about it except look around for alternative partners and/or poach UK-based scientists, both of which are of course ongoing. And UK-based ERC grant holders are also casting around for alternative homes of course.

    mefty
    Member

    So what is it that we have that the EU needs?

    Access to funding, European governments and companies raise huge amounts of funding through London, whilst economists will argue money is fungible it is never quite as simple as that and would involve a leap into the dark for them.

    But there’s nothing really anyone can do about it

    Considering Israel participates in Horizon 2020, there really is.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    I wont be saying my gym membership for 2 years when i cancel without being allowed to use it and its daft of the EU to think anyone will accept this

    But… there are lots of things that our government has specifically asked to still be able to use, and/or keep the benefits of… keep up… do some reading…

    Junkyard
    Member

    currently raise but they will happily be shifting the centre of European finance away from London

    Whatever one wishes to claim its obvious that in 10 years, 20 years and 50 years that they wont still be raising the sums they do today from London.

    thecaptain
    Member

    Oh I know it’s quite possible in theory for the UK to participate in H2020, but there’s no way of knowing whether that is actually going to happen, and no meaningful way for EU scientists on the ground to affect that decision. Precious little influence for UK scientists either, of course a bit of lobbying but no-one yet knows what the landscape will look like.

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
    Subscriber

    Exactly mefty. Have been making that point at work all week. The biggest losers from the fragmentation of wholesale markets are EU corporates and households.

    It’s time for the UK to play very hard ball now. May needs to grow a pair and lead on this. We need to move this forward and there is only one way to get the EU to negotiate properly. You look then in the eye and make it very clear. We WILL walk away. Period. So you either negotiate or you don’t.

    Time for some guts. Do we have them?

    thecaptain
    Member

    ROFL

    “They need us more than we need them”

    I didn’t think there was anyone left (outside the swivel-eyed loons) who still dared to say that.

    Come to think of it, I’m still not sure there is.

    deadlydarcy
    Member

    Quitlings be talkin’ tough. 😀

    cornholio98
    Member

    Airbus need Rolls-Royce engines, not insignificant.

    Sadly a significant potential for GE to gain more market. Obviously the too have a presence with compressor manufacturing in the uk.

    Personally I am worried we rely so much on Siemens and Alstom for our trains with no locally viable option. I guess local subsidiaries serving the local market if it is big enough…

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
    Subscriber

    We both need each other. BUT if the EU are going to do what they always do, you need a new approach

    Nothing more on Florence. If you don’t think that is enough oK, we end the negotiations now

    We don’t just sit there with a tub of KY jelly waiting to be rogered

    DrJ
    Member

    May needs to grow a pair and lead on this.

    Well, now that’s sorted we can all relax.

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
    Subscriber

    Not really because it won’t happen. We are emasculated and frozen. The eu are in control at the moment. And remoaners seem to delight in the fact.

    Premier Icon Leku
    Subscriber

    I’m not delighted.

    It’s just we told you it would be a clusterf@@k. And it is. And will continue to be so.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    Delighted, or furious?

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    Both the main parties voting to trigger A50, with one pretending to have a plan, and the other washing their hands of the need for a plan, still makes me furious. That it is leading us towards an inevitable short term choice between “no deal resulting in chaos and damage” or “something akin to Norway that will never wash politically back home”, as has been clear from the start, can make no one delighted, except perhaps those who don’t understand how the WTO or international trade in general works, or how the big nonEU countries and trading blocks will be ready to turn all the screws once we are exposed. Those warning about all this shit for years, can take no delight in any of this, unless they’re very odd indeed. It’s an awful situation, that isn”t about to become glorious and positive thanks to a fluffy speech from someone who loves quoting Churchill.

    R O A R

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    And remoaners seem to delight in the fact.

    Not me. I’ve said before, I hope I’m wrong. I hope we end up with a social cou try where government improves the environment and invests in innovation and has an open relationship with Europe, without trade barriers and with freedom of movement but without any of the negatives of the EU.

    But I can’t see that happening.

    DrJ
    Member

    We don’t just sit there with a tub of KY jelly waiting to be rogered

    A tub of KY and also a good supply of tinned food waiting for the German car-makers to crack while the supermarket delivery trucks are parked up outside Calais.

    Premier Icon igm
    Subscriber

    THM – you know as well as I do that the June 23rd 2016 leave vote, was a vote to be done over. Anyone who thought otherwise needs their head examining.

    And there is no way that given the behaviour of the Brexies since then, the country will ever be united enough to stand up to the EU as you ask. The press, the politicians, Brexies generally have been a disgrace and an embarrassment. That won’t change fast enough to get a sensible Brexit. Sorry and all.

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
    Subscriber

    Don’t understand first para, sorry

    Remoaners have overtaken Brexshiteers in BS since the vote and the stupidity of weakening the UKs position. They are the ones who have become the more embarrassing

    Still in denial and making a bad situation a lot worse

    Premier Icon igm
    Subscriber

    THM – no denial, just realism.
    We won, you lost, get over it is not a way to bring people together. Nor is branding the judiciary as enemies of the people.
    The attitude of Brexies since the vote has made our country more divided by the day.
    If you recall I have at least twice on this thread tried to explore what a successful Brexit might look like. The Brexies has nothing to offer.
    Nationally it was up to the Brexies to start a positive debate on what a good Brexit that would bring the country together might be – they failed spectacularly.
    Instead they tried to coerce people into compliance – many folk don’t take too well to that.
    Hence through their actions the Brexies have ensured a bad Brexit – but we can always hope that something turns up I suppose.

    As for the first paragraph – did anyone think the EU was not going to try to make sure the deal we get outside the club was substantially worse than the one we had inside the club? Really? That’s not being nasty, it’s just without that, why have a club? And I know you know that, you’ve said so (or at least that is what I’ve understood you to say) on a number of occasions.

    Now if you can tell me what I’m denying, I may start to take your accusation seriously.

    Edukator
    Member

    Resistance is noble. When you are sure of what’s right and good be faithful to your values and resist those that would destroy the what you hold dear.

    So I’m not in denial and I’ll do what I can to sabotage the Brexit process. Which might make a bad situation temporarily worse but if successful, will make Britain a better place.

    You go on strike knowing that there are risks but that if you win then you’ll be better off long term.

    You take on your stroppy kids head to head because if you back down they’ll be bigger little horrors than if you resist.

    When a government leads you down a path you don’t want to go you dig your heels. They won’t be around forever and if you provide enough resistance they won’t have dragged you far and it’ll be an easy walk back the the path you wish to follow.

    Fight the good fight… .

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
    Subscriber

    The brexxies left this thread a long time ago for good reason.

    e. The Brexies has nothing to offer.
    Nationally it was up to the Brexies to start a positive debate on what a good Brexit that would bring the country together might be – they failed spectacularly.

    You conveniently forget their did win, we liost ecause we failed to present a positive case for remaining. Easy to forget, eh?

    Premier Icon igm
    Subscriber

    Because they had nothing to offer?

    Go on, where in what I said am I being unfair to the disgraceful Brexies?

    They had the opportunity to try and bring the country together – they decided not to take it.

    The divided country will lead to a bad Brexit and it is their doing.

    I have no responsibility for Brexit of any type, though I am of course trying to help ensure this country doesn’t do any worse than it has to.

    I seem to recall asking the Brexies months ago what they we doing and was met with silence. They come across as a bunch of wreckers with no positive ideas.

    perditus
    Member

    The eu are in control at the moment. And remoaners seem to delight in the fact.

    I am delighted. See below nail – on head.

    How I learnt to loathe England

    Scotland should be let in if it wants, and Northern Ireland too. But England is out and must be kept out—at least until it has resolved its deep internal problems. Call it nation building.

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
    Subscriber

    The division WILL lead to a bad Brexshit. You got that right

    The offer is a bespoke deal which if successful would be only a mild lose. But the remoaners want to make that more difficult than it needs to be. The looney wing – even if not domiciled here – even want to create deliberate economic damage. Says it all.

    I seem to recall asking the Brexies months ago what they we doing and was met

    As before they left this thread for good reason. There is no point in responding the the greater lies bring (ab)used by the remoaners here. It became a contest to see who could lie the most outrageously

    Premier Icon igm
    Subscriber

    You conveniently forget their did win, we liost ecause we failed to present a positive case for remaining. Easy to forget, eh?

    Nope. I remember well. The case for Brexit was negative. Easy to win a vote with negative politics – harder to build anything afterwards.

    Edukator
    Member

    The brexxies left this thread a long time ago for good reason.

    And the forum too in several cases. When you’ve shown yourself to be a xenophobic, ignorant, little-Englander it’s embarrassing to stick around.

    Turnerguy is left, when he isn’t posting on his anti-hallal/anti-immigrant thread.

    This thread reflets the whole of British society. One side has the logic, the other side the stupid sound bites.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    But the remoaners want to make that more difficult than it needs to be.

    We do? What do you mean?

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
    Subscriber

    Edukator – that’s rich given the false comments you continue to post over and over again

    But you are being a tad hard on yourself by admitting that you are relying on stupid sound bites now

    Premier Icon igm
    Subscriber

    As before they left this thread for good reason.

    There were plenty of Brexies gloating about how they won when I asked the question THM. It was around a year ago.

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
    Subscriber

    IGM – be serious l, you normally are. We were the negative ones and that is exactly WHY we lost. Our failure to accept responsibility is telling

    The same happened with the Indy debate but fortunately the Scots were too can’t to fall for the Gnats BS

    TurnerGuy
    Member

    You go on strike knowing that there are risks but that if you win then you’ll be better off long term

    that sounds like exactly the rationale that most brexiters used.

    If you recall I have at least twice on this thread tried to explore what a successful Brexit might look like.

    that’s because it is hard to predict what the EU is going to let us have, because negotiating with them is prety impossible.

    And this brexit bill rubbish – they know what they think we are financially committed to, and we know what we think we are committed to. Surely it is pretty simple to present these numbers and then we can either contest the numbers, or not.

    That is the brexit bill, right there. It’s not hard.

    The only way a brexit vision can be proposed is if you take a known scenario – such as just going for a straight hard brexit and WTO rules, then at least you know the position you will be in and can plan for it.

    One original suggestion was WTO rules and a low corp tax environment, like Singapore. Although at least the big companies, like Amazon, would probably be paying more actual tax as they wouldn’t be able to play the current games that they do with the EU countries.

    Junkyard
    Member

    The eu are in control at the moment. And remoaners seem to delight in the fact

    they always would be because we want access to their market. there is no way for them to be anything other than in control unless one was as silly as believe they need us more than they we need them.
    No one is pleased about this not Brexit voters nor remainers but it was inevitable.

    to blame either side for this obvious outcome is silly its like blaming someone for the sun rising.Its just what happens when you leave a club but want the perks of the club without the commitments.

    As for get behind them – they dont have a plan to get behind as far as I can tell …what am I meant to do give praise and support to May so we can get a better deal ? Its not the most democratic response and “my country right or wrong” is not a statement i personally agree with.

    Yes we lost now they have to deliver on what they said would happen afterwards…does this look likely to you ?
    You can blame us for not getting behind them if it makes you feel better but they wanted this they need to get it not me. I get to sit back and say told you so .I accept this is not that helpful for the process.

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
    Subscriber

    Not surprising they were gloating. They won a battle they should never have won. They probably could not believe how bad the remainers were are presenting a positive case for staying in.

    We lost and deserved to. We now have a responsibility to limit the damage but are doing the opposite.

    TurnerGuy
    Member

    There were plenty of Brexies gloating about how they won when I asked the question THM. It was around a year ago.

    that’s because hanging around here with you bunch of glass half-empty remain losers is too depressing.

    TurnerGuy
    Member

    they always would be because we want access to their market. there is no way for them to be anything other than in control unless one was as silly as believe they need us more than they need us.

    On simple trade terms if we went to WTO rules they would be paying more in tariffs than we would as we import more.

    So you would think a trade deal would be on the cards just to limit that.

    But there will be pressure not to because we are interrupting their political vision, a political vision that a large percentage of the voters were aware of and didn’t want to be part of.

    Premier Icon igm
    Subscriber

    teamhurtmore – Member
    IGM – be serious l, you normally are. We were the negative ones and that is exactly WHY we lost. Our failure to accept responsibility is telling

    THM – I am being serious. Posters of lines of people with brown skin – positive? Talking about the cost and not the value – positive? (Oscar Wilde suggested that was cynical I think). Claiming we couldn’t control our own borders when we could – positive?
    There was no positive case made for Brexit, it was all negatives about the EU.
    As for responsibility – how can I be responsible for something I didn’t do and argued against? Note that I said at the same time I am taking responsibility on trying to bail the country out (in my own very small way), something I am yet to hear a Brexy take responsibility for (and I accept you are, but you’re not really a Brexy are you 😉 )

    cchris2lou
    Member

    Why remainers should make any efforts to help with Brexit ?

    TurnerGuy
    Member

    There was no positive case made for Brexit, it was all negatives about the EU.

    and that’s not true either – several people were mentioning being able to make our own trade deals faster and also the removal of the effective bias against employing people from outside the EU.

    I think you are just being negative, as usual…

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