EU Referendum – are you in or out?

I don’t think you can blame the RW press and politicians for the fact that the European parliament exacerbates the minority effect. If you have a voting system that hardly anyone engages in it will result in an undue influence being granted to a minority,

It’s certainly true that the EU doesn’t sell itself well enough in respect to elections.
30-40% is still 10s of millions of Brits voting and 100s of millions a Ross the continent , even if you’d want double that.

It’s same turnout as local elections & they aren’t considered a failure because of it
Local councils arguably having more effect on our day to day lives than any other type of government?

1/3rd of the electorate never bother voting at all,

Maybe we all take democracy for granted

Ok, Boris might be a drunkard too, at least he can hold his drink, Junker couldn’t even stand up straight!

Our drunkard can take his booze better than theirs?

Ace.

Can we get them to see who can piss higher up a wall as well, just so we can cover all bases?

The trouble is most of the country hasn’t thought about things as deeply as you, they voted in an instinctive and maybe reactionary way.

This pretty much answers an earlier question:

Three and a half years and no one has managed it yet. You would have thought this would have been easy to answer.

There are many reasons to want brexit and they all walk a similar line. Sovereignty, freedom to to what we want, Johnny foreigner not telling us what to do any more… These are all laudable desires and are very important to some people, the fact that we either already have these things or they otherwise have no basis in fact simply does not matter. Someone else nailed it a little earlier – they were sold a dream.

Brexit is all about feelings. Remain can recite facts all they like but the sad reality is they Just Do Not Care. They don’t care about trade agreements, or about the reciprocal benefits of things like Euratom or ERASMUS or Galileo or the Open Skies agreement, you know, the complicated stuff; many of them probably don’t even know these things exist, and pre-referendum that was probably most if not all of them (and most remainers too come to that). Project fear, price worth paying, I don’t understand why we can’t just leave. We’ve seen this movie before.

That’s why leave won and how they’re still winning today. In sunny Brexitland the heart trumps the head. You won’t ever get an answer when asking someone to name the tangible benefits because there aren’t any, but there’s intangible perceived benefits by the truckload.

Our system is far from perfect but historically it seems to have kept extremist parties out of the mainstream, (unlike the European parliament)

Maybe if votes for the “BNP or NF”, or alternatively “Greens or Socialists”, resulted in representation for those voters in the UK parliament, turn out might be higher, and people would feel less “forgotten” or “ignored”.

And as regards the voting system for selecting our MEPs, worth remembering that we, the UK, chose that system.

presence in Westminster? Our system is far from perfect but historically it seems to have kept extremist parties out of the mainstream

Looking at Brexit, windrush, mass privatisation, child poverty, food bank dependency

I’m not sure that isn’t a myth we tell ourselves to keep reality at bay

These are all laudable desires and are very important to some people, the fact that we either already have these things or they otherwise have no basis in fact simply does not matter

Spot on.

I was thinking about the election this morning and had the realisation that the Tories spent the last decade raping the country financially then managed to convince enough of the electorate that labour were going to steal whatever is left.

Historians will have a field day with this era in years to come

Keeping extreme parties out of parliament is counter productive. I’d much rather see extremes making dicks of themselves in parliament than have them hijack the main parties. The Brexit party has done no damage whatsoever to the European decsion making process but Boris making a deal with the Brexit party got him into power.

barely elected European Parliament?

IMO the Europen model with its proportional representation is the nearest to perfect democratic model on the planet. Try aguing againt using real arguments instead of hot air, you’ll fail.

Oldmanmtb –

Sad but all true, as you recognise, I’m only trying to look at some of the long running a deep rooted symptoms that have led us to this sorry state of affairs. Brexit itself is not going to remedy any of the problems facing the left behind, that boat sailed long ago.

My main concern is that we don’t push the working class further to the right with sanctimony and insults. There’s an argument that the working class decides history and I can’t find much evidence to dispute that fact. So as a middle class liberal I am mindful that if l
Left my emotions unchecked I could do little but exacerbate the problem. Those of us who voted remain are begining to behave in a reactionary way, similar to what we accuse Brexiters of doing. Two wrongs never made a right, I’m not proposing any solutions to the problem, I’m only looking to not make a bad situation even worse.

I do however hold the EU responsible for indulging in a deluded pipe dream, detached from reality and beholden to ideology. The European project was set up in response to 2 world wars that tore the continent apart, looking to unite through trade and cultural exchange. 25 years ago that mission got side tracked into some other kind of neo liberal project.

All alliances are fragile by nature, pragmatic rather than perfect. The idea of creating some European super state made that fragile thing brittle. To make some comparisons, the USA is 250 years old and is still a somewhat fragile entity, individual states having a good deal of autonomy, in many respects it isn’t a fully unified entity. I think the feeling was that the EU was looking to achieve in 50 years what the USA hasn’t managed to achieve in two and a half centuries. I’m sure people will jump on that observation and point out how stupid I am for saying such a thing but I think that is the perception for a lot of people.

The EU became oblivious to potential dangers, thinking that by extending democracy and unifying politically we’d create some sort of nirvana. It’s kind of like that end of history idea (the philosopher Francos Fukuyama posited this idea at the end of the cold war) it’s the idea that Western capitalist democracy had won and was some how an end point for political history, an inevitable destination for all mankind, eventually the whole world would follow suit. That’s beginning to look a bit like a fallacy now.

Brexit was the end of the end of history, things are proving to be a little more complicated. We can’t design ourselves out of history, we may actually be destined to repeat it.

Danny h –

Are you posting from the pub mate? If so, make mine a double.

25 years ago that mission got side tracked into some other kind of neo liberal project.

Have you looked at the rest of the world? Just wondering why you might think this a purely European phenomenon. Also wondering whether you think Brexit will accelerate such change within the UK, and between the UK and other countries across the world, or somehow insulate the UK population against such change?

Danny h –

Are you posting from the pub mate? If so, make mine a double

Keep up the passive aggressiveness. Brilliant work.

Danny h –

Are you posting from the pub mate? If so, make mine a double.

No mate.

I don’t tend to go for ‘doubles’ as I really don’t like the hard stuff. Never have. Gin and tonic is about all I can enjoy, and then not more than one.

I do love a pint of decent bitter, though, how about you?

IMO the Europen model with its proportional representation is the nearest to perfect democratic model on the planet.

That’s a joke right? A model that enshrines establishment power via technocratic bureaucracy and corporate lobbying is perfect? The main difference between the european model and the British/US FPTP models is that the the european model is slightly more sympathetic to the views of it’s citizens whilst being more difficult to change. If the status quo works for you then great, if not – as in the case of the Greeks – you’re f*****. If you define democracy as government by the people, for the people, then the models we have today barely deserve the name.

Keep up the passive aggressiveness. Brilliant work.

Ohhh, it’s passive aggressive…..

And there was me thinking inkster was just being chatty.

Well, blow me down.

If the status quo works for you then great, if not – as in the case of the Greeks – you’re f*****

Ah, the old “Greece was **** by the EU” trope

Kelvin and kimbers-

Fair points,

FPTP vs PR, roll of the dice.

Windrush is an excellent example of your point. Nothing to do with Europe but an opportunity exploited by the Conservatives in the Brexit hubbub. Quite possibly the most shameful thing I’ve seen from any government in my lifetime. The absolute opposite of everything I consider to be British. I know someone who has spent the last 2 years in a holding / detention centre. Thankfully out now, thanks in part to the involvement of my local MP

And there was me thinking inkster was just being chatty

He tried it on the previous page suggesting Kimbers “keep being a dick” if he wants

Trolling 101

I do wonder what previously banned member he is🤔

as in the case of the Greeks

Why did they beg to be let in to the Euro then?

Edited, replied too quick, meaning could be misinterpreted.

He tried it on the previous page suggesting Kimbers “keep being a dick” if he wants

Trolling 101

I know. You can ping them a mile off. Sad isn’t it?

Ah, the old “Greece was **** by the EU” trope

Largely the other way around. Greece made all sorts of promises then did bugger all to put it’s own house in order re unpaid and uncollected taxes.

Still, evil old EU eh?

Danny h-

Depends mate,

A nice Belgian beer, a glass of nice French wine, bit of German Riesling, Spanish cava, some Italian Chianti, or a drop of Greek ouzo, I’m quite cosmopoltan me!

On every other supposed leaving the EU date we had wall to wall coverage. It’s 5 days to go and barely a peep. What’s going on?

I do however hold the EU responsible for indulging in a deluded pipe dream, detached from reality and beholden to ideology.

From where I’m sitting it’s reality not a dream and as ideologies go the priciples are humanist and democratic. Pig in shit in Europe me: euro in my pocket, an MEP I voted for to represent me in the parliament, I have worked and lived in four members states, the ECJ to look after my rights, people to look after the safety of the food I eat and the water I drink (and swim in)… .

Fight the good fight remainers. Vive la résistance !

My main concern is that we don’t push the working class further to the right with sanctimony and insults. 

The well-reasoned and balanced debate of 2016 worked a treat, right?

Chianti

I only just got back into a drop of red after a decade or so of not bothering.

Not chianti, alas, but Valpolicella. Now that I do like.

I know someone who has spent the last 2 years in a holding / detention centre.

That is truly awful. Hate that people can be treated that way. Still, we’ll be able to treat more people from more countries appallingly, so that’s one Brexit positive for some people (but don’t call those people names).

That’s a joke right?

He was referring to the voting system used, do you disagree it works in a way that is preferable to the elections to our national parliament (well, the bit of it that is elected at all)? For example… how well is your MP representing you and your priorities in our parliament?

You are talking about the balance between national governments, the council, the parliament, and how they interact… with each other and third parties… which is far form perfect… but when you look closer to home the same is true… is it not? Perhaps worse.

Boardinbob –

Did you actually read what I wrote and what kimbers wrote before?

I complemented him on a well thought out post, where he had finished up saying he would keep on being a dick by defacing 50p pieces if Brexiters continued to wind him up.

I merely said feel free to do this if he wanted and said I thought it was cathartic and a much better thing to do than merely shout at people. Sorry if you took it the wrong way on his behalf, my comment was made in jest and with a certain amount of empathy.

I’ve been sparring a bit with Danny h on this thread and he seems to be able to take it in good faith, I’ll extend that good faith to you as well xxx

If you’re wondering which (not what) previously banned member I am you’re going to be wondering for a very long time, we might have even rejoined by the time you work it out. Refering to me as what member implies that I am a penis. I am not a penis, I am a dick sometimes, in the same way as kimbers professed to being. Don’t forget, we’re all dicks on here.

Genuine question. What makes you think I might be a previously banned member? Looking to broaden a conversation doesn’t get you banned on here, at least not yet anyhow.

Your posting history says you’re not a returning banned, Inkster, just an infrequent poster. It also confirms you’re consistently anti-Brexit which is inconsistent with being a Brexit apologist.

What I have issue with is that your view of the EU mimicks the lies in the right-wing and gutter press. Try some alternative news sources.

Pondo-

If you want to discuss the well reasoned and balanced debate of 2016 look at my comments about Corbyn and the bus on the previous page. I suggested that his tepid but disengenous support for remain was as responsible for the toxicity surrounding the debate as anyone else.

The best most ‘apologists’ for Brexit can come up with is that large sections of our society were duped by tactics (which are obvious to anyone prepared or able to take a step back and take a look) into voting for something that is contra to their best interests.

It is possible to come up with all sorts of adjective for that, but they are all basically euphemisms for ‘gullible’ and/or ‘stupid’. It can be used as an insult, yes, but it is also just inherent in Brexit.

The idea of creating some European super state made that fragile thing brittle.

Sure. But as ideas go, it’s a fictional one.

I think that is the perception for a lot of people.

No arguments here, but I’ve said before that a big problem is people’s ‘perception’ rather than any sort of reality.

That’s a joke right?

That comment surprises me, I rather thought you two would get on like besties.

Kelvin-

Windrush is more than awful, it’s truly abhorrent. I also have European friends who have had to trawl through 17 years worth of paperwork to prove their right to be here.

As you suggest, some people will use brexit as an excuse to call others names but does it make it any better if we then call them names as well? In the short term it would probably make me feel better to do so, though I am aware that the worst they can do to me is call me a snowflake or remoaner. If I look to wind them up it’s not me who is going to suffer any real consequences, it will be those they identify as ‘other’ who will be on the recieving end of their hatred, my friends and family for starters.

So I’m saying to all of you, think before you slag,

I suggested that his tepid but disengenous support for remain was as responsible for the toxicity surrounding the debate as anyone else.

I’m not sure as you can blame Corbyn for the “toxicity,” brexit is inherently toxic. Blaming him for his lack of opposition exacerbating the problem though, absolutely.

Remain hasn’t had a coherent voice / credible representation since 2016, the day after the referendum we were being told (democratically, obvs) to shut up and no-one of any clout has stood up to say otherwise.

Edukator-

Try some alternative news sources you say. How about coming on here to get bashed by people like you with your lazy insults.

Look at what you’ve just written, you say you can see that I’m an anti brexiter but because my views don’t ‘mimic’ those of yourself and others like you who think I’ve been duped by the right wing gutter press.

How does that amount to anything more than a lazy insult?

I am capable of holding more than one thought in my head at the same time, my views on the EU have been what they are for a long time, long before I drunk the Murdoch cool aid. Didn’t stop me from voting remain though because, as I said, I am capable of holding more than one thought in my head at the same time.

I’m actually a bit of a pretentious t**t, my thought is shaped more by looking at history and reading a bit of phillosopy. Check out Karl Popper, ‘An open society and it’s enemies’, or a bit of John Gray (he wrote an interesting piece on why the left keeps losing in the New Statesman last week.) Or if you like, just stick to the echo chamber on your Facebook page where you can just unfriend anyone whose thoughts you don’t agree with (or understand)

At least on here you can’t just unfriend those with different views, though I feel that if you could you would unfriend me in a second.

I’m off now to have a w**k into a rolled up copy of the Daily Mail.

brexit is inherently toxic

Ain’t that the truth. That is because no good can come of it for 99%+ of the population. Never could, never will.

no-one of any clout has stood up to say otherwise.

The fact that they’d immediately receive 100+ death threats will have had a part in that.

Has anyone done any survey on the number of direct threats made against individuals or their families by each ‘side’?

I’m pretty sure we all know which ‘side’ would be more guilty.

I received a load of personal abuse and threats from one angry man. In the original exchange all I did was correct his understanding of the voting system used in the European elections. Not normally a topic that would cause the reaction I got.

“You little this, you little that, **** you, I’m coming for you, you little ****’ etc.

Thing is, I’m above average height and looking at his profile pics he seemed a bit on the short side. Maybe that had something to do with it? I resisted the temptation to point this out, blocked the silly berk, and left him to shout at the sky. And he had ‘won’, remember.

I’m off now to have a w**k into a rolled up copy of the Daily Mail.

Better use for it than reading it.

I’m actually a bit of a pretentious t**t,

That bit I understand and agree with. 🙂 But no I won’t be reading anything by the other “prententious t**ts” you quote any more than you’ll start watching Euronews and reading the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung or Charlie Hébdo. I’m fond of reality based reasoning. Check out the last 1900 pages.

Look at what you’ve just written,

I don’t need to I wrote it. The “lazy insult” was deliberately chosen to mimick what you’ve been doing over the last few pages to your adversaries and point out to you the way your views of the EU come across.

Back up your anti-EU rhetroic with something the EU has done that adversly affects you that is actually worse than what the UK government was doing before. Find me some ECJ rulings you disagree with. Some EU parliament voting decisions you find abhorent.

I’m really happy living in Europe and recognise that a lot of what I like is the direct result of the EU project. You slag it off, I’ll defend it.

Cougar-

I’m not blaming Corbyn for his lack of opposition, quite the opposite(sic) in fact.

I’m asking you to imagine that if Corbyn, a lifelong eurosceptic had remained true to his convictions and supported brexit what could have happened? Maybe the debate would have been a little less racist and xenophobic, maybe Boris wouldn’t have come out in favour of Brexit maybe the working class northerners wouldn’t have deserted Labour. Lots of maybe I know and I’m not saying I know exactly what would have happened, I’m just positing a question, trying to think in a less binary way.

Corbyn showed weakness,sitting on the fence when the country needed leadership from him. Just imagine for one minute, brexit was a non party issue and if Cameron had led remain and Corbyn led brexit the debate would have surely been different and perhaps more informed. With the two party leaders adopting counter intuitive positions, Boris might have decided to keep his powder dry and sit it out, waiting to see what happened.

If you want to discuss the well reasoned and balanced debate of 2016 look at my comments about Corbyn and the bus on the previous page. I suggested that his tepid but disengenous support for remain was as responsible for the toxicity surrounding the debate as anyone else.

You did and it was as misguided as your call not to alienate the working class.