EU Referendum – are you in or out?

Didn’t most of the hard core Brexit mob end up foaming at the mouth so much that they got banned?

dannyh
…I openly call Brexiteers stupid….

I don’t. I think they were misinformed and lied to by people they trusted.

The concept of leaving the EU is not necessarily wrong, but it has been handled in what appears to be a woefully incompetent manner.

That is until you look at the benefits flowing to the people who funded the Leave campaign, hedge funds (the economic equivalent to forest clear-fellers). They’re laughing at us.

Fair play. Only a few hardcore Remainers on here nowadays. And real beauts they are too!

Waves at the brexiteers 👋

I am not a remainer.

I am a rejoiner.

^^ Ditto. Absolutely.👍

What a sad shell this thread has become! It’s like turning up really late to a party that in reality finished long ago. All that’s left is a drunk couple hurling insults at one another regarding the sham relationship they have harboured for years. I feel that for the dignity of both side of the debate, over 1900 pages and not far short of 80,000 posts it’s almost better shut down, like parking up the ark in storage at the end of Indiana Jones.

“I don’t. I think they were misinformed and lied to by people they trusted.”

I understand the theory, but does it still hold true when millions of people have been screaming “you are being misinformed and lied to” for months on end?

@ athgrey

Except…. Brexit hadn’t even happened yet. This is just the build up. This was the “easy” part. Its from 11pm on the 31st that this thread really becomes relevant. When the referendum result really does matter and chickens come home to roost.

Another 10 years when most of the treaties are sorted then it might be time to rethink.

Might.

Hell, no one is forced to post on here though.👍

@ athgrey

Except…. Brexit hadn’t even happened yet. This is just the build up. This was the “easy” part. Its from 11pm on the 31st that this thread really becomes relevant. When the referendum result really does matter and chickens come home to roost.

Another 10 years when most of the treaties are sorted then it might be time to rethink.

Might.

Hell, no one is forced to post on here though.👍

I know nobody is forced to post here. I did so of my own free will. I dont doubt the gravitas of Brexit, and what needs discussed, sadly this thread is at the state of one side in the echo chamber threatening getting #remain tattoos on their bell ends whilst screaming ‘STUPID RACISTS’ through the pain. At the same time the few presumably ‘STUPID RACISTS’ say remoaners should suck it up and get the tattoos done on their foreheads instead.

Is that about right?

Lets talk about the bus, not the big red one with the lies written all over it, lets talk about the other one, the one Jeremy Corbyn dismounted waving a sheet of A4 paper and offering his Luke warm, no, tepid support for remain. (eerily reminiscent of Nevile Chamberlain getting of that plane in 1939 with another piece of paper in his hand.)

Consider this for a moment, had Corbyn stuck to his principles he would have come out in favour of Brexit, his entire political career has been opposed to Brexit. Had he done so the argument would have been less toxic, less right versus left and given that Corbyn is such a serial loser we would probably still be in the EU.

Face it, Corbyn is as responsible as anyone for us leaving. So tell me now, was it just the Breathers that were lied to?

spekkiw
I understand the theory, but does it still hold true when millions of people have been screaming “you are being misinformed and lied to” for months on end?

They’re still believing the people they trust.

athgrey

………
Is that about right?

If you wish to sum up Brexit, the trade deals to come and this thread from reading about 3 posts then perhaps, yes.

Or…. If the thread irritates you so much why not PM a mod to request the thread be closed?

Or an easier solution, don’t read the thread?

Other than that, I’m not sure of your point in posting to be honest? Start a new thread to vent about this one perhaps? Up to you really as you say.

I’ve not been a contributer to this thread till now, maybe all the Brexiters were seen off with reasoned and well researched argument, I can’t say and I’m not going to trawl back through nearly 2000 pages but most of what I’m seeing now is just the same old arguments,- they were lied to, they were stupid, it was the Russians etc. etc. etc. Are there no other perspectives?

How about the 25 years of embracing globalism?

How about being led by drunken donkeys like Jean Claude Junker, who made Sepp Blatter look credible?

How about UK politics being completely focused on metropolitan areas, ignoring the rural areas and struggling towns? (UK cities are on average 3 times larger in terms of population than cities in France, Germany, Italy, Spain and the like) Politicians have completely ignored the hinterlands for decades, are you really surprised that they reacted in this way given the chance a referendum offered?

Then there’s the minority effect. The European parliament is a sham, politicians elected on miniscule turnouts, few people cared or even knew about them. They were just an opportunity for the clever people who understood such things to have a ‘special’ vote for themselves, thus fostering the idea of an elite. Democracy doesn’t mean anything if you can’t get more than half the people out to cast their ballot.

The creation of a European Parliament sowed the seeds of it’s own destruction, Alowing Nigel Farrage (and others like him accross Europe) to gain traction when he couldn’t get a seat in our parliament despite trying 4 times.

So for those of you who think I’m deluded, not responding to any af your reasoned and well researched points, Tell me why any of the above points are not as relevant or maybe even more relevant than any of the hyper reasoned, they were lied too, they’re stupid type arguments you present ad infinitum.

Good posy inkster, I’m sure someone will be along shortly to shoot you down with a well reasoned argument.
But

I can imagine what you’d would have tattooed on your forehead as a result of what’s behind said forehead.

Reminds me of someone I was in school with. Big Elvis fan so he tattooed Elvis on his forehead. Only proplem was he did it himself looking in a mirror 🙄🙄.
Ended well though, he got it removed with a grant from the Prince of Wales trust 👍

Cheers taxi25

One thing I always liked about this place was it’s lack of toxicity, there were always a few entertaining trolls / fruitcakes but for the most part it was always a good place for a philosophical debate. It’s a bit sad to see how its started to mimic the BTL comments we see everywhere else.

I understand peoples frustrations with Brexit, I feel them myself but we’ve got to move on, just shouting sanctimoniously at the other side is doing no good at all, the other side doesn’t care, they won, they can just ignore us now, we’re just hurting ourselves if we don’t try and think differently.

Why do we have to move on and think differntly?

Its an utter disaster for the country. those responsible need to be reminded of this at every oportunity.

How about UK politics being completely focused on metropolitan areas, ignoring the rural areas and struggling towns? (UK cities are on average 3 times larger in terms of population than cities in France, Germany, Italy, Spain and the like) Politicians have completely ignored the hinterlands for decades, are you really surprised that they reacted in this way given the chance a referendum offered?

It’;s working out for them so well isn’t it. Life is going to get so much better for them…..oh wait….

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jan/25/former-red-wall-areas-could-lose-millions-in-council-funding-review

How about being led by drunken donkeys like Jean Claude Junker, who made Sepp Blatter look credible?

Pot….meet kettle (Boris is a drunken donkey).

How about the 25 years of embracing globalism?

Life is a lot better than it was in the 70s, thanks to globalism.

The European parliament is a sham, politicians elected on miniscule turnouts,

Meanwhile we have a monarchy and the house of lords.

feel them myself but we’ve got to move on, just shouting sanctimoniously at the other side is doing no good at all,

Shut up.

How about the 25 years of embracing globalism?

See, this is back to page one stuff… some people voted Brexit to resist globalism, while others say that we’re leaving the EU to embrace more globalism. It was never going to be both.

Why do we have to move on and think differntly?

Its an utter disaster for the country. those responsible need to be reminded of this at every oportunity.

All they want is for grownups to stop pointing out their epic fail. Maybe there is a bit of realisation dawning, although I am not holding my breath.

Whatever. Every fail, every cock up, every “I didn’t vote for this” moment is going to be pointed out and held up to the ridicule it deserves.

It can be done with or without insults. The stupidity is inherent.

#rejoin

How about UK politics being completely focused on metropolitan areas, ignoring the rural areas and struggling towns? (UK cities are on average 3 times larger in terms of population than cities in France, Germany, Italy, Spain and the like) Politicians have completely ignored the hinterlands for decades, are you really surprised that they reacted in this way given the chance a referendum offered?

Us metropolitan lefties have been saying that austerity which exacerbated & exposed all these divisions was a daft idea from day 1. Even Corbyn devoted a pmq s to regional bus routes.

But the biggest predictors of Brexit voting was education level.

The inequalities in the country have little to do with the EU, more with how society is structured .

We have some of the best universities in the world but our tertiary education and apprenticeship have gone from bad to abysmal over the last 20 years.

Yes juncker was a dick, which made him an easy target for the tabloids, and there is another big chunk of the problem- the rw press have spent 40 years making up lie after lie about the EU, Johnson’s job as EU correspondent at the telegraph was him literally making up stories for a laugh.
So when wet blanket Cameron came back from Brussels with a few concessions , none of them bothered to explain that out of the Euro, Schengen & with a huge CAP rebate we had the best deal of any member or 3rd country.

They were just an opportunity for the clever people who understood such things to have a ‘special’ vote for themselves, thus fostering the idea of an elite.

Again partly the fault of our press & partly the fault of our own MPs, our governments constantly telling us how great they are ,eg Maybot selling the end of roaming charges as something the Tories had negotiated & won themselves.
Or Never acknowledging the work done by the EMA on certifying medicines- something that is going to be an expensive lesson in a few years when newer drugs are costing more.
I had no idea we relied on Euroatom to regulate use & transport of nuclear material in this country.

Or that UK government has one of lowest levels of state funding for research in the EU , Content to rely on EU money, of which UK science is the biggest recipient

Likewise European Investment Bank, funding projects in those leave voting seats, like the conference centre used by the Tories in Brum or the Harbour in Grimsby, because our own governments don’t care about them.

All of this makes little difference, leavers rarely try & offer a coherent response to these arguments. Go back a few hundred pages and there was better debate, but it was usually just regurgitating BS from the rw press Vs here’s a link from full fact which says otherwise

Although I agree we should all rise above the pettiness of Brexit

I am looking forward to defacing every Brexit 50p coin I can get my hands on !

If the Tories insist on rubbing my nose in the loss of my EU citizenship then I’ll keep being a dick about it

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51250753

Inkster a very good post and it highlights the symptoms that were leveraged by the ERG, Banks, Farage to further their own ends which ultimately is a form of deregulation that allows then to transfer more wealth.

This brexit thing was and will never be about improving the lot of the poor unwashed and yes i am sure that Boris will chuck a few schillings at the poor old north but its deflection/dead cat tactics.

Those who voted for this from the neglected post industrial/seaside towns had their futures removed by good old Maggie while deregulation of the city and the selling off council houses made people feel rich.

The global genie is out of the bottle, these neglected people voted for well paid old school industrial jobs, they voted for something that simply does not exist anymore. It matters not how much money Boris borrows he cannot deliver what these folks voted for.

People talk of reconciliation and moving on? Moving on to what exactly? This is where all Brexit roads lead to for poor people “nowhere” they have been sold little more than a dream and its sad, i come from these places you talk about and my Father was born in Blyth that now Tory stronghold Boris cant turn back the clock in Blyth the clock was sold a long time ago.

Its been a remarkable process –
Step 1 focus all you effort on making your world a better more profitable place while ignoring the hinterland
Step 2 blame the problem you created on a third party who you would like to get rid of
Step 3 get rid of third party

I bet JRM and Banks can hardly stop laughing

The thing is, practically none of the issues Inkster points out were due to any EU policy or rule.

It was done by our own domestic governments, of both parties, for several decades. And those parties have quietly let the press blame the EU so that when people felt that they had a chance to vote for a change, they thought Brexit was the solution.

I am looking forward to defacing every Brexit 50p coin I can get my hands on !

I am going to pay them all into a separate bank account set up for the purpose. Then donate it to the campaign to rejoin.

@athgray

If you don’t like the thread, maybe you should PM the mods and ask them to shut it down. Do let us know how you get on.

Maybe Boris and the bell ends will do it for you and create a law banning any negative mention of Brexit. Silencing opposition in the name of marching forwards? Very 1930s.

So, if you want to move on from the mud slinging, can you please outline two or three things you think will make Brexit a positive for the UK? What are the upsides as you see them? Why were they unachievable without Brexit?

Three and a half years and no one has managed it yet. You would have thought this would have been easy to answer.

This is where all Brexit roads lead to for poor people “nowhere” 

They lead to “nowhere” for everyone except a few of the puppet masters.

As the UK lurches drunkenly through the next few years, the basic question will still be “what exactly was the point of this again?”

It won’t be answered then as it hasn’t been answered yet, because it is a nation level fail. Thinking it was clever to fart out loud and cause a bit of a stink, but accidentally following through and now we are sat in shitty pants with rest of the world either laughing at us, pitying us or pretending we just aren’t there.

Every time I get one if those 50p’s I’ll give it to the increasing number of homeless street people. It’s up to them what they spend it on.

I can see the Volkischer Beobachter, sorry Daily Mail headline.

“Brave Boris Bans Brexit Bad-Mouthing”.

In a bold move brave PM invokes Blitz Spirit by declaring any negative mention of brexit to be unpatriotic and defeatist.

In an apparently unconnected incident leading anti brexit figures received white feathers and sketches of gallows through the post.

Downing street categorically denies any link.

Good thread by Peter foster

Brexit making us all poorer , hitting most brexity areas hardest

But they are frogs being boiled slowly, they don’t seem to notice or care

We often hear #brexit economic forecasts were all wrong. Nothing has happened! The doomsters were wrong!

Not right, per fascinating new paper by @DennisNovy et al which shows sterling crash cost h'hold £870/year – or the nation £450m a week! 1/threadhttps://t.co/M3OEApSxQa

— Peter Foster (@pmdfoster) January 24, 2020

How about the 25 years of embracing globalism?

Isn’t that what Johnson says we are going to be doing?

The stupid brexiteers had their prejudices pandered to by press and politicians

Some like Johnson used this to gain power some for the money

Tjagain-

I can see that your angry / passionate / frustrated and your not alone in this. You don’t have to move on if you don’t want to.

What worries me is the only point you seem to be making is that the working class are stupid and I think that’s dangerous. The only thing l can see this achieving is pushing the working class further to the right.

That’s what I mean about moving on. We need to find a way of establishing a different discourse, I can’t see how increasing polarization is going to be good for anyone.

raybanwomble –

Shut up you say? No I won’t

I said there has been a metropolitan emphasis in UK politics due to demographics for as long as I can remember, how does an article in the Guardian negate that fact.

Boris might be a donkey but he’s not a drunkard and was voted in by a massive majority (unfortunately but inevitably)

I agree, life is much better now than it was in the 70’s. Asserting that globalism is the sole reason for this I find a bit spurious. How can we predict what might have happened over the last half century had globalism not taken hold. I’m no reverse Nostradamus and neither are you. That’s counterfactalism and probably best addressed in a different thread, the world is a random place, change one thing in history and everything else changes as well, it’s the butterfly effect.

Because we have a monarchy and a house of lords who are unelected it’s fine to have a barely elected European Parliament? Is that a solution?

Keep on shouting at the mirror fella.

Kelvin –

Fair enough, wether right or wrong, the issue of globalism was an issue none the less.

and was voted in by a massive majority

He was voted in with a massive majority of seats, if that is what you mean. The majority of people did not vote for his party. Useful to remember this. He didn’t get the support of even a small majority of voters, never mind a massive majority of us.

the issue of globalism was an issue none the less

Absolutely it was. Now, will we embrace it, or reject it, outside the EU? Did the referendum, or the general election, give Johnson the mandate to be more protectionist, or more open, to international trade and ownership of businesses and services?

Boris might be a donkey but he’s not a drunkard

Are we sure about that ?

Boris might be a donkey but he’s not a drunkard 

According to people who work in and around parliament, including someone I know, he is pissed up a lot of the time.

My last glimmer of hope in the face of next Friday

Jingoistic flag waving all next weekend. Gleeful ruddy faced gammons all over the news.

Once the initial hysteria does down, we slowly move towards BRINO between now and December.

Tories will say “We left the EU” to placate the puddle drinkers.

But realistically they know close alignment is the only solution.

Or am being stupidly optimistic?

Kimbers –

Great post, I pretty much concur with all you’ve said and you’ve obviously thought about it quite a lot.

The trouble is most of the country hasn’t thought about things as deeply as you, they voted in an instinctive and maybe reactionary way. It was up to the remain camp to articulate a digestible message and they failed miserably. The RW media is a POS, spewing lies and misinformation but that’s nothing new.

However I don’t think you can blame the RW press and politicians for the fact that the European parliament exacerbates the minority effect. If you have a voting system that hardly anyone engages in it will result in an undue influence being granted to a minority, (both europhiles and europhobes). The same minority effect is evident in the way in which both the Tories and Labour have changed the protocols for electing their respective leaders, a small minority, (party membership) who may or may not be aligned with said parties will have an undue influence.

In the old system, elected MP’s would have gathered in a smoky room and decided in private to select a leader, you may not like it but all of those MP’s were elected via a general election (bye elections and union endorsement non withstanding) so the results were much more reflective of the electorates choices than the silly and easily corruptable system both parties have implemented.

You are allowed to be a dick if it makes you feel better, The defacing of brexit related currency falls into the category of creative protest as far as I’m concerned. A cathartic response, much better than shouting abuse at those who have a different point of view than us.

A couple of moderatorial points:

Contrary to popular belief, there have been a handful of bans at best. We only issue life bans in exceptional circumstances. The ones who have been banned have (off the top of my head) always been for abuse rather than for their political opinions – banning people because we disagree with them, well, that isn’t a forum I want to be any part of. At least one poster got a week ban then sent us a tirade of abuse via email in return which got the ban extended indefinitely – some lines you simply aren’t allowed to cross (and if we hadn’t done it Mark would almost certainly have done so, he has zero tolerance for such shenanigans).

This thread won’t be closed if only because it would be like chopping heads off a hydra, there’s too many “brexit, and another thing…” threads already.

Ok, Boris might be a drunkard too, at least he can hold his drink, Junker couldn’t even stand up straight!

And yes, he got in with a majority of seats but not with the majority of the electorates support. Isn’t that the case for every PM we’ve Had? That’s how the political system we have here works.

I understand many don’t like it and prefer proportional representation but wouldn’t a PR system have delivered the Brexit party 80 odd seats in parliament? And in the past wouldn’t it have given the BNP or NF a considerable presence in Westminster? Our system is far from perfect but historically it seems to have kept extremist parties out of the mainstream, (unlike the European parliament)