The problem you have there is, that a big chunk of the population have a very different idea about what a ‘principled politician’ is, and how they sho

Is there a chunk of the population that find out that they’ve been lied to for over three years but consider the liars to be “liars with principles”?

And if so, just what exactly does a politician have to do before these people wake up and smell the coffee?

Westminster voting intention:

CON: 40% (+3)
LAB: 24% (-)
LDEM: 15% (-1)
BREX: 10% (-2)

via @OpiniumResearch, 23 – 25 Oct
Chgs. w/ 17 Oct

— Britain Elects (@britainelects) October 26, 2019

We are all ****

And people are asking why Corbyn is resisting an election.

Corbyn aside

Johnson will win the next election, we’ll end up with his hard brexit & when we spend the next decade arguing over the much more complex Future Relationship to eventually get a far worse deal than we have now….

Somehow it will still be everyone but the brexiteers fault

You can probably close the thread right there.

Good old Swindleson… WTF is she up to now?

Can’t see this ending well.

Are they after a few more seats at the expense of handing Brexit to Johnson?

Labour are only aiming to stay in opposition so it doesn’t matter.

It matters in so far as timing and potentially giving the Tories a bigger majority.

Don’t blame Labour on this one.

I don’t blame Labour on their timing, I do blame Labour for being unable to put up a resistance to this shower of shit government though

I understand why Labour are saying “no election until no deal is off the table” – I don’t understand why the Libs/SNP are saying “we insist the election be 3 days earlier than Boris suggested”. You’d think a bit of solidarity amongst the opposition would be good right now.

I don’t understand why the Libs/SNP are saying “we insist the election be 3 days earlier than Boris suggested”

I thought that was in order to ensure we can’t go out with No Deal before the GE?

Johnson will win the next election, we’ll end up with his hard brexit & when we spend the next decade arguing over the much more complex Future Relationship to eventually get a far worse deal than we have now….

Ah you’ll end up with his deal as it suits them to have a little delay whilst they finalise the ‘great’ new U.K.- US trade agreement.

He just needs some sound bites to prove how well it’s going or how the EU are being awkward but with a majority it doesn’t really matter.

Like the workplace pension scheme they’ll do the same for healthcare and before you know it your eating washed eggs and chlorine chicken.

(Possibly thou I’m not sure how the NI bits going down in the US)

How come those polls about voting intention never have the SNP in them? They have more MPS than the Lib Dems

A lot more MPs but a lot less votes. Such is our system.

I don’t blame Labour on their timing, I do blame Labour for being unable to put up a resistance to this shower of shit government though

One is a product of the other in any case. Any halfway competent and electable leader would be in power right now and not in this situation.

Bloody idiots.

I guess the real thing that worries me is that Scotland will get independence and then the maths makes it look like we will have tories in power for at least a decade, and corbyn will do nothing other than assist that.

Anyone else trying to figure out where else in the world would be better to live?

scotroutes
I don’t understand why the Libs/SNP are saying “we insist the election be 3 days earlier than Boris suggested”

I thought that was in order to ensure we can’t go out with No Deal before the GE?

Isn’t it to avoid the need for a 2/3 majority so they could then bypass Labour and get a GE with just a simple majority?

Anyone else trying to figure out where else in the world would be better to live?

I’ve considered my options, but actually despite all the brexit bullshit, there are very few places in the world I’d rather live (that I could afford). It’s easy to forget how good we actually have it relative to most of the world.

Grahamt1980 yes!
The country I chose to move to in 2004 is really not the country I thought it was. Quite disheartening. I imagine it feels worse if you’re actually born here.

Ireland or Scotland (if they separate from the UK). Or Australia or Canada I guess. I could in theory move to the US with work but not entirely sure.

Back to Sweden likely not but never say never.

Anyone else trying to figure out where else in the world would be better to live?

“England made me and here I’ll stay, England made me let England deal with me.”

I will not leave my home because of these ****. I will stay here and cause as much **** grief as possible.

I am not getting bounced in to this… Thursday it was "madness" to have a winter election.
Any election now will be a Proxy Brexit referendum and Hard Brexit could be won in 6 weeks on only 35% to 40% of the vote!! https://t.co/0psTUWj5dz

— Angus B MacNeil MP (@AngusMacNeilSNP) October 26, 2019

My first thought was to agree with this SNP MP (& @Rone)… but what are the alternatives? A referendum clearly isn’t going to happen before an election. Revoke won’t happen without an election or a referendum. A Withdrawal Agreement that leads to a closer relationship with the EU won’t happen without an election. And it looks like an extension into next year isn’t going to happen without either an election or a referendum.

Ideally this all needs bumping into 2020 in the hope things calm down (and those stoking the fire in preparation for an election are miss-footed), and I presume that is what Labour are playing for… …but will the EU let us can kick without declaring a public vote of some kind? And if not… what vote will Labour back us having, and when?

but what are the alternatives?

The alternative is fairly simple. If the EU don’t grant an extension, a VONC will have to be called this week and they’ll have to get behind Corbyn as interim PM in order to get that extension before we crash out on thursday. I suspect this latest ruse by Swinson is a desperate attempt to avoid that.

@dazh I don’t know where your idea that Swinson is the devil incarnate came from, but there really isn’t any supporting evidence for it.

The EU will grant an extension. The only question is how long.
A GE needs to happen.

If the EU don’t grant an extension, a VONC will have to be called this week and they’ll have to get behind Corbyn as interim PM in order to get that extension before we crash out on thursday.

What persuades enough of the Tory ‘rebels’ to back Corbyn as PM… and, most importantly, what would the programme be? So, same question really… if we had a Labour interim PM… and the EU are holding off on granting an extension into 2020 ‘till we indicate we’re having a public vote… what vote are Labour proposing and when?

I thought that was in order to ensure we can’t go out with No Deal before the GE?

I’m feeling a bit thick this morning. Someone will have to explain to me how bringing forward a GE from 12th to 9th December avoids crashing out on 31st Oct.

The Johnson proposal is putting WA legislation through parliament after it has agreed to a general election on 12th December. It has ‘TRAP’ written all over it. SNP/LibDem proposal is to leave WA legistation ‘till after an election… which realistically means election ASAP.

I still think this is high risk (and instinctively feels like a mistake) but what is the alternative now?

Don’t know how to link but good thread on Twitter from NS explaining their proposal.
It is only high risk because Labour are fence sitting.

I’m hoping for a minority Labour government post election with LD / SNP holding Magic Grandad by his freetrade nuts. It’s the only way we are going to get a second referendum.

There’s a decent article from Kevin McKenna in the Observer about how Johnson would actually be happy for an independent Scotland – huge electoral advantage to the Tories in the rest of the UK.

Many English brexit voters would be happy to get rid of Scotland.

I did wonder why the Tories were so against an independent Scotland back in 2014 considering how good that would be re: seats etc. I figured they knew Scotland had some essential contributions economically, but maybe they just didn’t want to be embarrassed. And noone gets embarrassed in politics now

The Johnson proposal is putting WA legislation through parliament after it has agreed to a general election on 12th December.

But parliament isn’t going to agree to one is it?

I’m hoping for a minority Labour government post election with LD / SNP holding Magic Grandad by his freetrade nuts. It’s the only way we are going to get a second referendum.

Would be nice, but the pollsters have changed their methods and I doubt they’ll see the same underestimation of labour as last time.

Johnson is a serial bullshitter, but he tells people what they want to hear & a lot seem to love it regardless.

Johnson is a serial bullshitter, but he tells people what they want to hear & a lot seem to love it regardless.

Populism. It works for people who won’t or can’t think too much.

A GE won’t fix this. It’ll be all about Brexit, ignoring all the other issues the country needs to deal with. We’ll most likely end up with a minority government or coalition and the dance will continue.
SNP want a GE because they smell Tory blood in the Scottish waters and it will help their push for Indyref2.
LibDems want a GE because of all the moderate votes they hope to pick up.
Labour don’t want a GE because they are going to get battered and they know it.

"MPs have spent long enough debating Brexit and now is time to pass the deal"

Agree: 56%
Disagree: 25%

—

"The Brexit legislation is complicated and MPs need more time to scrutinise it"

Agree: 41%
Disagree: 33%

via @OpiniumResearch

— Britain Elects (@britainelects) October 27, 2019

Hmmmmm

If you’re looking through that Opinium polling to work out the way forward… good luck…

Poll today – 57% regret the Brexit vote, but the Conservatives have a 16 point lead over Labour – confused? So are the public.

— Ben Page, Ipsos MORI (@benatipsosmori) October 27, 2019

Just making the same point – people are confused and conflicted ( and that the outcome of polls is really influenced by the way the question is asked).

It’s like Schroedinger’s electorate… We will not know until there is a referendum or GE

It’s like Schroedinger’s electorate… We will not know until there is a referendum or GE

GE isn’t going to help. Partly because of the FPTP voting system, partly because it’ll be the same shower of incompetents in marginally different percentages trying to get their idea of Brexit through a hung Parliament without any majority on any side to give anyone any advantage.

GE & Ref on same ballot gets the crap out of the way

GE & Ref on same ballot gets the crap out of the way

Good idea but for some reason there is a requirement for many moths notice before a referendum to give everyone the chance to be told about the pros and cons of a single issue. Whereas an election can be held with a couple of weeks notice as no issues to worry about with the numerous different policies and complexities of the various parties.