But he would presumably still prefer a Tory party to one led by the evil communist Corbyn.

Why ?

Assuming Corbyn can even be elected he can only do so much damage from a Ken Clarke view to the UK in a single term.
I doubt Ken Clarke believes the Corbyn utopia would survive after that … I also dare say if he’s wrong we still have a functional company and if there is no first class rail travel* he can live with that.

*Just randomly

Why ?

Because he’s a tory, and an old school one at that, which means his single motivation is protecting the power and wealth of those who currently hold it.

Peter Oborne isn’t always right, bit he’s bang on with this

Have a listen to Jeremy Vine from an hour in yesterday – Amol Rajan was presenting and had Oborne on, it was a distinctly unpleasant ad hom that got really rather spicy. I quite liked Amol, but that was one of the least objective pieces I think I’ve ever heard on the Beeb.

Because he’s a tory, and an old school one at that, which means his single motivation is protecting the power and wealth of those who currently hold it

Did you ever imagine, at the height of Fatcherism, that we’d arrive at a point where her hatchet men like Clarke and Heseltine would be considered liberal lefties by the leadership of the Tory Party?

Thats just how mental this country now is. The architects of the original free-market fundamentalism are now considered to be almost socialists.

It’d be fascinating to hear what their hero, Fatcha herself, would make of all this. Personally I think she’d look at the present tory party front bench and be absolutely horrified

Have a listen to Jeremy Vine from an hour in yesterday – Amol Rajan was presenting and had Oborne on, it was a distinctly unpleasant ad hom that got really rather spicy. I quite liked Amol, but that was one of the least objective pieces I think I’ve ever heard on the Beeb.

I listened to it live. Neither of them came out of it looking good. There were no winners.

It’d be fascinating to hear what their hero, Fatcha herself, would make of all this.

She’d be so disgusted that she’d  spit out a mouthful  of the child’s blood she’d been drinking from a golden goblet.

As horrific and twisted as they might have been, at least she had principles and the integrity to stick to them.

I listened to it live. Neither of them came out of it looking good. There were no winners.

I agree. Would have been nice if they’d actually discussed it, mind.

I’m off work sick and very, very bored. I just made the mistake of reading some of the utter shite that (exclusively old) people post on Brexit threads. I **** despair.

Did you ever imagine, at the height of Fatcherism, that we’d arrive at a point where her hatchet men like Clarke and Heseltine would be considered liberal lefties by the leadership of the Tory Party?

That’s what they were considered at the time.

It was Heseltine who brought her premiership to an end, over Europe and some helicopter company.

Got one of our greeting card reps in at the moment.

The amount of shops she has lost is scary. I wish our so called leaders would listen to the people at the front.

Shit is happening and it can only get a  lot lot worse  .

dazh:

Because he’s a tory, and an old school one at that, which means his single motivation is protecting the power and wealth of those who currently hold it.

I’m pretty sure, if you look really carefully you will find that there is a human being not some lizard invader from planet Zogg.

if you look really carefully you will find that there is a human being

Most human beings have a strong sense of empathy and generosity towards others. I see little sign of those in the majority of tories.

I wish our so called leaders would listen to the people at the front.

The current leaders genuinely could not give less of a poo about the people at the front, the middle, or the back.

Unsurprisingly, this Tory Brexit project is an idealogical one designed to exclusively improve the lot of the 1% at the top. The rest of us don’t even register.

To them, its all ‘a price worth paying’ because they’re not the ones left picking up the tab.

That will be left to us mugs, same as with the banking crisis

When the car industry, pharma and god knows what else goes down the tubes, they’ll adopt exactly the same casual, callous disinterest they showed to the miners and the steelworkers in the 80’s

I see little sign of those in the majority of tories.

How many tories do you actually know?

Unsurprisingly, this Tory Brexit project is an idealogical one designed to exclusively improve the lot of the 1% at the top. The rest of us don’t even register.

Don’t fall for those percentile tricks used by the rich to hide within the “slightly richer”
The majority of wealth (even declared) is in the top 0.01% … which of course means they can point their fingers at the top 1%, 5% or 25% depending how you draw it.

The ideological part is that anyone can improve their lot… and many Tory’s probably subscribe to this as the bottom 10% don’t really exist to them and a fair number of them have come from modest backgrounds… but all of this draws the attention away from the top 0.01%..

The money behind the ideology of brexit is not from “millionaires” or “multi-millionaires” but the likes of Aaaron Banks…

Most human beings have a strong sense of empathy and generosity towards others. I see little sign of those in the majority of tories.

Perhaps you should take off your hate goggles?
Why do you think Kenneth Clarke or others have opposed the government/Tory line?
(Especially Kennth Clarke … it’s not like he’s starting a career…)

and a fair number of them have come from modest backgrounds

Such as…?

I remember Iain Duncan Smith saying, as he introduced Universal Credit, that he empathised with the unemployed as he himself had been without a job when he left the army

Yes, Iain, but most people on benefits aren’t married to members of the landed gentry who’s parents gave you a house worth a few million quid to live in.

When I think of the Tory’s who are driving this whole project, I think of him. A man utterly and completely devoid of the remotest shread of compassion, empathy or humanity. A man who’s deliberate actions (also purely idealogical) have made the lives of the poorest and most disadvanted in this country immeasurably worse. A fact he clearly couldn’t give a flying **** about!

Brexit will impact those same poor and disadvantaged people the hardest. They know this, full-well, and they couldn’t care less

To be fair, dash did say “majority of” not “all”.

How many tories do you actually know?

This is an interesting one. Do we gravitate towards people of similar political persuasions or is it that our position in society (work, leisure interests, etc.) mean we tend to rub shoulders with those of a similar view anyway?

Personally, I can’t be totally sure but I think I know 2 tories and 2 maybe 3 brexiteers.

Perhaps you should take off your hate goggles?

Why would I do that? Ken Clarke, no matter what he does today, and what short memories people have, was part of the government which deliberately laid waste to huge parts of the country to take revenge for the miners strike. He may have been a tory wet, but he’s still a tory, and those of us who witnessed the devastation of the 80s will never forget that.

Indeed. And he looks like Ghandi compared to this present lot

same as with the banking crisis

Which, IIRC, the country is now either at net zero or in credit for, for them there loans what propped up the banks, i.e. no mugs were required to support that. Just saying, like.

Are you suggesting that no one in the UK paid any kind of price for that over the past decade?

Anyway… where the ____ are Labour this week?

Labour… angry at…

— Kelvin Owers (@spittingcat) October 24, 2019

Devestation of the 80’s brought upon us by the devastation of the 70’s.

Anyway… where the ____ are Labour this week?

You may have missed it but they scored a big victory against the govt on Monday by preventing them from railroading through the brexit bill. Nowt much else has happened since then as everyone’s waiting for Merkel to persuade Macron to climb down from his high horse.

If an extension is granted, it will either be kicked down the road again or Boris will go for an election which Corbyn may or may not support. If it’s rejected then all hell will break loose and we can expect confidence votes, the govt falling and all sorts of other mayhem.

Devestation of the 80’s brought upon us by the devastation of the 70’s.

Secure jobs, workers rights, free education, generous pensions and benefits, a functioning NHS, and affordable housing. The horror!

same as with the banking crisis

Which, IIRC, the country is now either at net zero or in credit for, for them there loans what propped up the banks, i.e. no mugs were required to support that. Just saying, like.

Ah… thats refreshing to know. Good job it was a case of just bunging the banks billions of quid and everything just immediately went back to how it was before, eh?

I seem to have a vague recollection of my business going bust after our three biggest clients folded, one after the other, owing us shedloads of money, as the economy completely stopped functioning, literally overnight.

Then the resulting suicidal depression trying to cope with unemployment, having lost pretty much everything but the clothes I was stood up in. And then there was this ten years of austerity where the budgets of the councils in the areas I live were slashed by 50%…

Did none of that happen? I must have dreamt it then…

Well… if they payed it all back over the next ten years and there were no long term implications… Jobs a good ‘un.

Can’t wait to do it all again, post-Brexit.

Disaster capitalism isn’t so bad after all…

Ah… thats refreshing to know.

It’s true. The memory of 40% of my work colleagues being made redundant and zero pay rises for the next 5 years was just a figment of my imagination. Similarly I think Mrs Daz hallucinated having her public sector salary cut by 30% because the govt gave hundreds of billions to the banks and couldn’t afford to pay for public services.

The company I was working for having to waste 2 years culling half its workforce, as clients either went to the wall or had to cut all but day to day spending, was all a dream as well.

I remember all the “well, if they can’t survive a period like this, the company must have been rubbish anyway”, or “they wouldn’t have lost their job if they worked harder”, followed by “why should we be paying for these people to get benefits”… bullshit talk… and I fully expect these narratives to be in full flow post Brexit once again…

… ”It wasn’t the fault of Brexit, the company shouldn’t have had such tight cashflow/margins and the staff should have worked harder and for longer and for less pay” … get ready for it …

as the economy completely stopped functioning

I guess that would be the preceeding financial crisis and subsequent depression, not the loan itself.

The memory of 40% of my work colleagues being made redundant and zero pay rises for the next 5 years was just a figment of my imagination

Austerity was a policy choice (as I think you have pointed out many times on this forum) and was not the loan itself.

Let’s not forget planning for no deal has cost £6.2 billion so far this year.

That’s another 2 years on your retirement age.

dazh

Subscriber

Why ?

Because he’s a tory, and an old school one at that, which means his single motivation is protecting the power and wealth of those who currently hold it.

This sort of thinking is very Socialist Worker circa 1982, and I don’t think it’s very helpful.

I’ll precede the following by saying that I have never voted Conservative and on a general basis do not agree with the bulk of their ideology. However, the notion that every Tory MP is part of some sort of national conspiracy to subjugate the proletariat is utterly moronic. Presumably, you’ve been reading too much Das Kapital with an uncritical eye.

JP

Austerity was a policy choice

It was. However I seem to remember the justification for this was the ballooning national debt and deficit, which if I remember right the tories said was the fault of labour overspending, and not the hundreds of billions dished out to the banks and the recession caused by their friends in the city. I don’t want to rerun old arguments, and it’s off topic in any case, but that justification was utter bollocks, and a massive reminder that the tories will do what they have always done, which is protect the people at the top, whilst screwing everyone else. Brexit won’t be any different whether you’re Ken Clarke or IDS.

And on the subject of Ken Clarke, to go back on topic, lets not forget that this is the man who Jo Swinson had up on a pedestal as the best man to stop brexit. 3 weeks later he voted for Boris’s deal without even a hint of protest.

which if I remember right the tories said was the fault of labour overspending

It would have been of supreme surprise if they hadn’t blamed the opposition.

Jo Swinson had up on a pedestal as the best man to stop brexit

No, he was one of the names suggested to lead an alternative government that could get the support of enough Tory MPs… the purpose of which was to replace Johnson and his government, stop a no deal exit this month, and get an extension to allow a democratic event such as a general election. Any government that was to replace Johnson with the help of current MPs had to carry with it people who think we should Leave, but not in the way Johnson was prepared to Leave at the time (ie no deal). Since then, Johnson has out played all the opposition parties by getting a deal that many of those Tory MPs against no deal can (foolishly in my opinion) get behind.

the notion that every Tory MP is part of some sort of national conspiracy to subjugate the proletariat

Nope, it’s not a conspiracy, it’s just what they do. Call it a natural predisposition to being c****. To quote Michael Foot (which clearly makes me a socialist worker*), “if you ask me about those insoluble economic problems that may arise if the top is deprived of their initiative, I would answer ‘To hell with them’. The top is greedy and mean and will always find a way to take care of themselves. They always do”.

*for the record, I’m no lover of socialist workers either. Can’t be doing with their authoritarian bolshevik vanguard of the workers bollox.

Election it is then. Assuming Merkel does her stuff I can’t see labour turning it down again.

Bitch, bitch, bitch…

Look, there is probably an election on the way… to stop Johnson we need people who normally vote Conservative to vote tactically… we need people who normally vote LibDem to vote tactically… we need people who normally vote Labour to vote tactically… stop with the boring Tribal generalisations for a while, please.

I’d rather the next step towards “settling” this Brexit mess was a referendum… followed by an election to choose who runs the UK… but it’s looking more unlikely every day.

So the election will deliver us Hard Brexit or something else… and we’ll need as many MPs against Hard Brexit as possible… so tactical voting it is. We need fewer Hard Brexit Conservative (and Labour MPs).

I’m voting Labour to try and get rid of our local hard right MP.

So the election is Hard Brexit or something else…

Err, we may well be out by then if the brexit bill is passed before parliament is dissolved.