The Rees-Mogg and son story is being denied by protesters who were there and apparently not being corroborated by police, according to (remain biased) social media reports.

Different perceptions/interpretations of the same noises, probably.

Juncker: We’ve received Boris’s letter. Have a look.
Tusk: Why hasn’t he signed it?
Juncker: Maybe he was hoping we wouldn’t realise it was from him.
Tusk: Or he doesn’t know how to do electronic signatures.
Juncker: Maybe he needs more ‘technology lessons’.
Tusk: Don’t we all?

— Mrs Nigel Farage (@MrsNigel) October 21, 2019

It would’ve helped if the media and Leave.eu had tried to take the toxicity out of the debate instead of going “Brexit NOW!” at everyone.

It’s certainly resulted in long-standing grudges against specific newspapers and one political party here. If parliament cannot agree on what Brexit means this late in the day then it’s definitely not okay for a bunch of hard-right nutjobs to decide our collective future away from public scrutiny. Maybe it is time for a long extension and a public inquiry or royal commission to take the matter out of the hands of the ERG and Tufton Street mentalists after all.

Agree. The more these people scream quick, quick, quick, the more we should take a step back and see what’s really happening here.

PJM for PM!

The Brexiteers know that this is it, their only chance. Blow this and brexit is gone for ever.

Why do you think they are so anti-referendum? If they through the nation actually still backed brexit then why would they oppose it?

Well, sounds like JRM got the result he was looking for. Tabloid outrage. Probably didn’t give a shit what effect it might have on his son.

Totally stage managed.

Yeh you know it, jrm was using his child as bait and praying some protester would say/do something untoward so he could say ‘look! Look at how evil the remainers are!’

Pathetic and just shows how sick he is.

Bercow cannot let a vote go through until the Letwin amendment is fulfilled, which Boris & his team know full well. However, by asking for a motion that they know will be rejected by the Speaker, allows them to paint this as yet another cynical move by remainers to prevent Brexit.”

Boris wasn’t even there and neither were many tories. If it was genuine then they would be whipped. Think

Ah well they’re planning to get the WA Bill thru in 3 days

The new bill, made public for the first time this evening, is 110 pages long, with 124 pages of explanatory notes.

Total piss take to try and ram something as important as this thru without scrutiny and its already looking like it’s got some howlers in it starting with that classic of needing an export declaration to get goods into U.K. From NI

Boris wasn’t even there and neither were many tories. If it was genuine then they would be whipped. Think

They were whipped, you don’t need to be in the chamber to vote, hence the division bells all round Westminster including in some pubs and restaurants

it’s got some howlers in it starting with that classic of needing an export declaration to get goods into U.K. From NI

That’s in the Withdrawal Agreement not the Bill

Anyway fun and games in Remainia, the People’s Vote lot are calling the SNP splitters for putting down an amendment asking for an election rather than a second referendum.

Labour is putting forward a sensible compromise to sort Brexit. Include a customs union to protect our economy and let the people have a final say. This is not a wrecking amendment but a genuine attempt to bring people together & secure a decent way forward we could all support.

— John McDonnell MP (@johnmcdonnellMP) October 21, 2019

👍🏼

Protect manufacturing with a customs union, and then put WA+CU intention to a confirmation vote.

No idea what the SNP are up to, they seem to have lost the plot.

That’s in the Withdrawal Agreement not the Bill

What? Are referring to the meaningful vote on the WA? Or the Withdrawal Agreement Bill to make it law?

The Withdrawal Agreement can’t be amended by an Act of Parliament because it is an international treaty between the EU and the UK, hence the comment. It can however not be ratified in entirety by not passing the Bill. Under the terms of the Withdrawal Bill, the need for a MV disappears – see Clause 32. All very straightforward.

That’s in the Withdrawal Agreement not the Bill

Your right my bad it was quoted from the WA I’d attributed it to being also in the Bill as both were being discussed.

So workers rights are in the withdrawl Bill but then not really.

Except the Schedule referred to in 34 does NOT secure workers rights …Schedule 5A 1. (1) (b) allows Govt to introduce a bill that does not guarantee rights – as ever, smoke and mirrors 🙁

Grief this stuff is Complex What one schedule gives another takes away.

It’s most likely full of contradictions so that with a quick inspection they can point to one part that says it protects something, drawing attention away form the bits that make that protection null and void. Push it through quickly without full scrutiny and voila, they have the deregulated utopia they want while selling something completely different. The whole thing stinks.

Just imagine what a state we’d be in if Boris had got his long proroguing of parliament!

So the government’s pitch is basically

“Don’t you worry your pretty little heads over any of the detail. It’s all fine. Honest.
Trust us. Now, if you could just sign… here… and here, and we’ll sort the rest out…”

Well the country is apparently fed up with Brexit and just want it ‘done’ so no need to really look in any detail at anything now.

Is “Get Brexit done” the new “Take back control”? It’s got the stink of Cummings all over it.

That and ‘Surrender Act’

What’s terrifying now is the amount of the Tory MP’s (and former Tory MP’s) who say that they know the deal is terrible, far worse than Mays deal, but they’re going to vote for it anyway

Looks like the MEPs are in no rush to ratify their side of the agreement, so even if Johnson somehow rushes it through parliament unamended this week there’s still a chance that the EU won’t be ready to proceed on 31st.

IIRC Mogg said the plan was HOC sitting until midnight on Weds and Thurs, but no sitting on Friday, as part of the rush to get this “minor bit of legislation” through. I think I also read that this crazy timetable will be put to a vote today… But what if Boris & chums keep up their amazing vote record and lose another vote and MPs reject this rushed timetable?

Given the track record of government by petulant toddler I imagine the sounds of toys coming out of the pram at downing street will be followed by all manner of Cummings inspired assaults on the usual democratic norms with legally questionable stunts

Mefty, I know I don’t need to point this out but I loved your comment…

Anyway fun and games in Remainia, the People’s Vote lot are calling the SNP splitters for putting down an amendment asking for an election rather than a second referendum.

Seems to me the SNP are splitters – in fact surely that’s their defining characteristic, their raison d’être – no?

Can’t believe I actually agree with Nigel Farage!

“[Boris] wants to bounce us into this new treaty before we wake up. It’s the same story every time. It’s about the Tory party, not the country.”

Even those who want us out of the EU are starting to round on Johnson’s form of democracy…

This is NOT DEMOCRACY! – Government Trying to Force WITHDRAWAL Bill Thro Parliament without Scrutiny.

MPs are supposed to digest 200+Pages This Evening before they go home… Absolute Nonsense.

Please Retweet! pic.twitter.com/WHjo7xvdll

— Bruges Group 🇬🇧 (@BrugesGroup) October 21, 2019

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/21/boris-johnson-tries-to-unhappen-saturday-with-sociopathic-unreasoning

I do enjoy the Guardian political commentary pages. 🙂

We truly live in interesting times when a fringe group of hard-right nutters that used to be fronted by Mark Francois are bleating about the WA that gifts them a no deal Brexit by default in fourteen months.

That Grauniad link is great – especially the comment on the contribution of my own MP:

“But as he is right up there with Chris Grayling as one of the dimmest people in parliament – even the sheep in his Welsh constituency have a higher IQ – not even his fellow Tories paid attention.”

[strong]crazy-legs[/strong] wrote:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/21/boris-johnson-tries-to-unhappen-saturday-with-sociopathic-unreasoning
I do enjoy the Guardian political commentary pages. 🙂

Now that article did make me chuckle. Especially the following as it refers to my MP and, by default, my sheep. 🙂 (I can confirm, having met DD many times, that I fully concur. Plus I have some very clever sheep!)

“David TC Davies also cried bias. But as he is right up there with Chris Grayling as one of the dimmest people in parliament – even the sheep in his Welsh constituency have a higher IQ – not even his fellow Tories paid attention.”

Jinx!

So will Johnson lose his timetable vote today

I cant see the DUP backing it, maybe abstain?

I think trying to rush this through at the last minute knowing it will get voted down is Johnson’s tactic & helps deliver his people vs parliament wheeze

of course it poisons & divides the nation further

but at this point its all about Johnson being shown to be right!

Chaos with ed milliband anyone?

Anyway fun and games in Remainia, the People’s Vote lot are calling the SNP splitters for putting down an amendment asking for an election rather than a second referendum.

For those of us in Remainia there are no positive outcomes from this mess unless you happen to want a break-up of the UK.

Any win at a legally binding referendum to remain is only a short term solution to how to address 17.4M people who voted leave for a cornucopia of different and irreconcilable reasons the only agreement being leaving the EU would solve them all.

The opportunity to address this and end up with a country not divided near 50/50 was pissed away by May and Corbyn after the situation being created by Cameron.

There is a very deep dissatisfaction with the status quo… which on the face of it is blamed on the EU however the reality is most* of that is based on lies that would not have been allowable in a legally binding referendum.

*I’m not claiming all or that the EU is perfect… but that the reasons behind this are elsewhere. These reasons includes globally and globalisation and UK specific and simply that the world has changed and some EU… but completely misses the advantages we gain from being part of the EU in resisting some of the excesses of globalisation or UK specific protections.

Regardless, if Article 51 is over turned unless we address some of the perceived problems we will continue to be a divided nation.

The remain campaign was hugely unsuccessful because it failed to address what people had been told was the EU in terms of feelings and instead only tried to say how we could reform the EU from inside.

It’s pretty easy to debunk the “EU banana laws” … but what remain were missing is noone except a tiny % give a flying about banana laws or even wondered what WTF regaltions were.

Bananas were a proxy for being told what to do, what we can say or think… Whilst this is what people believe then facts can take a back seat.

What Leave did was conflate a load of regulations that no-one really cares about with implications that we were losing a veto on things people did care about like who joined the EU and then conflate that with a “banned subject” such as “immigration”.

The Remain answer to concerns was “immigrants are a net benefit to the economy” what this didn’t address is xenophobia and to a large extent this was conflated with racism.

This is then bandied about with other “banned subjects” people care about that have even less to do with the EU and can probably all fit under an umbrella of “political correctness”… this is a near endless list… I don’t even know where to start… how many genders do we recognise? (Nothing to do with the EU NYC had 20+ legally recognised and enforced last time I looked)
Gay marriage ??? Women priests?? I remember at the time some hotel that refused unmarried couples and gay couples a double room being an example….

Just so I’m clear … I just got back from staying with a Gay married couple (and their adopted child) and I have a kid and I’m not married…. my personal view is I’d not stay in that hotel given any real choice…. (OK I’m not going to let my kid sleep on the street in winter) but you can’t LEGISLATE belief. I personally struggle to see what this has to do with the EU … but lots of people were saying they were voting for Leave because they felt political correctness was unbalanced and the FELT (and I assume still do) that their opinion being shut down is something to do with the EU. This list goes on and on … it might be how you bring up your child or it might be being told you can’t by a hydrocarbon powered car or whatever… there is a huge “anti-snowflake” feeling with many older people which Leave conflated with the EU.

What Leave did was actually provide a “safe place” for lots of people with old fashioned ideas or beliefs. This is perhaps ironic as snowflake “safe places” are probably one of the things they feel angry about but what is more ironic is that this “safe place” houses a whole load of ideologically opposed people.

The best way to sum this up is a mutual : “I might find your beliefs loathsome but I will fight to the death for your right to express them”

The reality is probably that if they can live with 1-2 beliefs yet they have a very strong belief in one issue the above is moderated and by careful partitioning and advertising Leave can reconcile “pro-life” with “pro-capital punishment” (to use a US example)…

Blaming the EU also goes back across multiple governments of different colours….with shit stirrers like Bojo writing editorials multiple governments have let people believe something was forced on us from the EU when it had nothing to do with it or if it is a EU regulation then it’s not something we wouldn’t regulate anyway.

Quite honestly who wants total deregulation for something like child seats or motorbike helmets or for that matter fresh fish or chips in newspaper or a blue passport? What has the EU got to do with our reduction in policing and if we could be bothered we could reclaim EU nationals using the NHS… we could protect jobs from busloads of Eastern Europeans … we could restrict immigration of non EU citizens (50%) … we could do lots of stuff but the state pension would certainly need shifting again.

It should hardly be a surprise given the demographics that a lot of the people with old fashioned beliefs are also older people…. they voted for £350M for the NHS staffed by British born unicorns who speak clear english and have english qualifications and a magic unicorn field for state pensions…

Anyway… that’s my view of WHY any new referendum right now is the wrong time… going back to the NHS staff and teachers in the current toxic environment even a 55/45 remain isn’t going to bring back those nurses and teachers or businesses who just find the UK hostile (if they do they would be more likely to move to Scotland). Unless Remain let the pressure out we are pretty screwed either way…

I think trying to rush this through at the last minute knowing it will get voted down is Johnson’s tactic & helps deliver his people vs parliament wheeze

Yeah, a high degree of electioneering going on here. Keep shoving fuel on the ‘establishment! traitors! undemocratic!’ fire and then run that up the flagpole until it is time for a GE. What jolly luck the media is by and large funding him in agreement!

Sublime:

We should be celebrating the fact that we have a man in Boris who can’t even be trusted to be reliably untrustworthy.

I see Labour are fully backing Johnson !

@UKLabour MP @FitzMP on the WAB:

"Have you read it?"
"No."
"Have you tried?"
"No."
"You haven't tried to read any of it?"
"Not yet."
"Or the explanatory notes?"
"No."
"The impact assessment?"
"No."
"Will you vote for it?"
"In principle, yes." pic.twitter.com/KXGBHmsZh9

— Brexitshambles (@brexit_sham) October 22, 2019

For those of us in Remainia there are no positive outcomes from this mess unless you happen to want a break-up of the UK.

At this point, whilst I’d dearly love to see the whole thing shitcanned and sanity restored, the only realistic least worst case outcome now that I can see possibly maybe happening is a Brexit in name only.

If we get that, then all the leavers can do one, and we can have a return to attempting to sort out real problems. Hopefully with an actual real prime minister and a government made up of MPs that are just ever so slightly less in it for personal wealth enhancement.

Rest of post I agree with. Leave appealed to scared people’s emotions.

Except the Schedule referred to in 34 does NOT secure workers rights …Schedule 5A 1. (1) (b) allows Govt to introduce a bill that does not guarantee rights – as ever, smoke and mirrors

To an extent this is a statement of the bleeding obvious, anything given by an Act of Parliament can be taken away by one in the future, what this paragraph does is essentially impose an obligation on a Minister to telegraph the fact when introducing a Bill.

Leave appealed to scared people’s emotions.

Project fear?

And yes, of course it did. We knew this three years ago, remain appealed to the head, leave to the heart. That’s why we lost. And we’ve not yet learned from this, which is why another referendum is dangerous.

Because leave isn’t concerned with facts, it’s all about feelings – it feels wrong for us to be “told what to do by Brussels”, it’s not hard to see how this is a compelling argument, the fact that it has no basis in reality is irrelevant.

We’re now heading for a situation (post 2020) where NI and Scotland are in regulatory regimes fully outside the “control” of their MPs… NI left following EU standards and not UK ones, when their MPs don’t want that, and Scotland deregulating away from EU standards, when their MPs don’t want to. How this is going to be dressed up by anyone as improving our Westminster based politics if you’re based outside England&Wales I don’t know. I fear this can only go badly for the union.