rushed post exit legislation implemented by bypassing parliament.

How can the minority government legislate without parliamentary consent? It’s the basis of how our country operates surely?

Not disagreeing with you I’m just trying to identify loop holes.

Parliament has already given the government the power to change any law to facilitate the running of the country if Brexit happens. Go back a few years in this thread and you’ll some of us complaining about that power grab, with others saying we were making a lot of noise about nothing.

Or is it just a continuation of the toxic people V’s parliament narrative they are desperately pushing?

Could be both tbh. it’s useful material either way for his election campaign.

I Don’t think there’s a downside for him on it.

If he gets an in-principle deal and then parliament votes it down after banging on about how he must get a deal is pretty much lighting the people versus parliament touch paper for bonfire night.

His problem is a VONC and another referendum before an election but his party aren’t likely to help with that if he’s got a deal.

Back to the original backstop it is.
Boris has thrown the Dup under the bus and then reversed and crushed them a bit more.

If this is true, then Boris is an idiot. It won’t get through, Bojo will be hammered at an election due to the Brexit party….that would be a pretty unprecedented political blunder on his part.

Unless he has enough lexiteers and ERG members on his side to do it?

Laws need changing, yes @zippykona… but the same is true for any deal. Lots to do… we we’re unlikely to be leaving this month unless it’s a car crash no deal with rushed post exit legislation implemented by bypassing parliament.

Yep but I don’t think A slight technical delay to implement his deal if he gets one would actually hurt him much as thought so I’d pretty much think he’d be saying we’re out when we’re technically still in.

If this is true, then Boris is an idiot

Nope he’s just playing the hand he was given, they were always going to have to fudge NI and they knew it from day one as it was left as the last part of the deal to be sorted out.

At our decision if I remember correctly.

Rayban – the lexiteers are very few in number – what he must be counting on is Kinniocks crew – they are not lexiteers. they are scared of their racist electorates and want brexit so they can keep their seats even tho they know it will be a disaster. they are almost all on the right of the labour party. Plus outright racists like Hoey

TJ is right, it is the ‘practical remainers’ that are the biggest risk… the real Lexiteers prize a shot at getting Corbyn into no10, and a chance of a Labour Brexit… they will not bail Johnson out. It is remain voting Labour MPs, mostly on the right of the party, looking to save their Leave seats, who don’t really want Corbyn as PM, who will back whatever Johnson offers. And a tiny few nationalist Brexit Party nutters who are sleepers inside Labour. In addition, most Lexiteer MPs have now publicly fully got behind the idea of a second referendum (some as late as this week mind you), the rebels who might back Johnson and are still stridently against a referendum mostly campaigned for Remain.

I’m not sure what to make of Kinnocks lot, I wouldn’t call them New Labour. Just a motley bunch of opportunists?

Perfectly put.

Just a motley bunch of opportunists?

Brexit seems to throw up an awful lot of these.

they are scared of their racist electorates

Come on TJ, that’s a very lazy stereotype and you know it. Sure, the sort of working class constituencies who voted to leave which Kinnock et al represent have a problem with racism, and are probably 20-30 years behind the big cities in their enlightenment, due largely to either having very small and/or very segregated non-white communities. But is it not possible they voted to leave for reasons other than racism? Do you think Kinnock and Lisa Nandy etc would put their names to whatever it is their constituents are telling them if it was just driven by racism?

Sure, the sort of working class constituencies who voted to leave which Kinnock et al represent have a problem with racism, and are probably 20-30 years behind the big cities in their enlightenment, due largely to either having very small and/or very segregated non-white communities. But is it not possible they voted to leave for reasons other than racism?

Apart from the working class bit, rural (but wealthy) areas are also 20-30 years behind and have pretty much zero immigration. The people I have spoken to over the last 20 years of living here tells me they are racist yes. But then when our Tory MP (in place for 20 years) is ready to black up at the drop of a hat it is not really surprising.

Boris has thrown the Dup under the bus and then reversed and crushed them a bit more.

If this is true, then Boris is an idiot. It won’t get through, Bojo will be hammered at an election due to the Brexit party….that would be a pretty unprecedented political blunder on his part.

Unless he has enough lexiteers and ERG members on his side to do it?

On Brexit the ERG and DUP are two cheeks of the same arse. If Joris Bohnson has come up with a deal that the DUP won’t vote for, then there’s no way the ERG headbangers will back it either.

Let’s be honest, no matter about all the spin being put on it, whats Joris is proposing is just Mays deal with a few caveats. The ERG/DUP will still view it as ‘breaking up the union’. So getting this through parliament is going to hinge on how big the number of Labours ‘just get it done’ brigade are prepared to vote for it.

I don’t think the ERG mob are prepared to vote for any deal, no matter what the detail is. The backstop is actually just one of a long list of reasons they wouldn’t support Mays deal. It’s No Deal all the way for them. Has been all along

Xenpohobia at best.

These labour MPs are just idiots who have completely lost their way. “weathervane” politicians is how they were described on this thread. ” these are my principles and if you do not like them I have others”

What really annoys me is they know brexit will be a disaster especially in those constituencies but they still think they need to follow the xenophobes in their communities in case they get voted out. So for them its job before party before country.

I despair of them

A sad symptom of how low westminster politics have gone

To be fair to Westminster politicians, the entire system of government has had a hand grenade thrown into it and they’ve been asked to deliver the impossible

I don’t buy all this ‘they’re all in it for themselves’ narrative. My own MP is a thoroughly decent bloke who went into politics for all the right reasons. I think most of them are*.

But they must all know that there is no good outcome to this. Its all about damage limitation and trying to ensure the least damage to their constituents. The least shit option

* I’m obviously excluding Boris Johnson and the ERG cult-of-Brexit headbangers from this who I consider to be the most glaring example of self-serving ideologically-driven charlatans this country has ever seen, who couldn’t give a shit about anyone other than themselves and their rich, tax-avoiding friends and funders. They’ll all do very nicely out of this car crash, whatever the implications for the rest of us

* ours is not

Binners -= you really think that about the Kinnock crew?

IMO far too many of our westminster politicians are there to get rich not for any altruistic reason and that is across all parties. Far too many of them are willing to do anything for a few quid

I note that village idiot David Davis has popped up again from the soft play centre he’s kept in, to deliver his words of wisdom.

Christ on a bendybus, that bloke is as thick as mince

My MP campaigned for remain in an area that voted 64% to leave. He then came out as backing leave in the 2017 election and increased his majority. His principles seem to have fallen by the wayside.

But is it not possible they voted to leave for reasons other than racism?

Or other reasons as well as racism? I find that more likely.

Or even more likely other reasons that were concocted after the event to legitimise their actions.

My MP campaigned for remain in an area that voted 64% to leave. He then came out as backing leave in the 2017 election and increased his majority. His principles seem to have fallen by the wayside.

Or, less cynically, he agonised over a decision about sticking to his own beliefs or reflecting those of the majority of large his constituents. 64% is a large margin. That’s a tough call.

My constituency absolutely reflected the national vote at 52/48. My (labour, non-corbynite/PFJ) MP is a staunch remainer who has continued with that, and if you look on his social media and communications he has received a constant deluge of traitor/enemy of the people type abuse for doing so.

I wouldn’t fancy being an MP in the middle of all this turmoil. Would you?

Whichever way you jump, half the people are going to hate you for it

Far too many of them are willing to do anything for a few quid

On this subject I wonder about Nicky Morgan’s personal finances. To go from arch-remainer and best mate of Soubry, to no deal apologist, Boris supporting cabinet member suggests she really needs the ministerial salary.

As for Kinnock et al, I really don’t know. It is a curious one, and I’m not sure it’s only about self interest. Perhaps they feel duty bound to represent their constituents in the way they do? Or maybe they just want to create trouble for Corbyn? It’s a weird issue to martyr themselves on that’s for sure.

Nicky Morgan is probably the ultimate example of being bought off with a ministerial car and chauffeur. She’s a disgrace. She went from ardent remainer to publishing an article in the Guardian about us all having nothing to fear from No Deal, and it’d all be Boris’s bright sunlit uplands.

An absolute charlatan

Kinnock jr = I think its three things – mainly scared of those xenophobes in his constituency and desperate to court them to keep his seat, wanting to make trouble for Corbyn and being stupid

Whichever way you jump, half the people are going to hate you for it

Ah, empathy for Corbyn at last then?

Not really. Sitting dithering while refusing to commit one way the other, or saying one thing to one audience, then the opposite to another just means that everyone thinks you’re a ****! 😉

Anyway, it looks like Boris’s game is up. The combined immense brain power of Iain Duncan Smith, John Redwood and Mark Francois have combined to realise that they’re Brexiteer hero is basically going to bring back Mays deal and ask them to vote for it. In fact, its worse, because it keeps Norn Oirland in the EU customs union for good

Instead of sticking it to Brussells, it’s groundhog day. Again…

but I fawt we was gonna have no deel no sirrender

It looks like dying in a ditch is going the same way as lying in front of bulldozers

Fois-gras eating surrender monkey.

The combined immense brain power of Iain Duncan Smith, John Redwood and Mark Francois have combined to realise that they’re Brexiteer hero is basically going to bring back Mays deal and ask them to vote for it.

Except this time they can’t so easily vote it down as Johnson is their man. It still seems unlikely but I think the ERG could back down and vote it through with the help of the labour idiots. I can only imagine what Theresa May will think about that. Corbyn will be even more pissed off, as thanks to the pressure from remainers and his resultant acquiesence, all labour’s electoral hopes hinge on Boris not getting a deal and having to go cap in hand to the EU to ask for an extension, hence why they’re threatening to deselect any labour MPs threatening to rebel.

And I might add that I and some others predicted all this some time ago. 🙂

Except this time they can’t so easily vote it down as Johnson is their man

Right up until the point that he’s no longer their man. Everything must be sacrificed at the altar of Brexit. Including Boris.

They’re keeping quiet for the moment, which is unusual, but I can’t see them or the ‘no surrender’ DUP voting for anything close to what’s being proposed at the moment, which is Mays deal, but a bit shitter

Riddle me this… if Johnson is relying on people who really want Brexit above all else to vote for his party at the next election… what happens if he “gets Brexit done” before the election, neutralising it somewhat as the central voting issue? Does he think voters will “thank” him for Brexit, or vote based on all the other issues in front of us? If his electoral plan is winning seats off Labour in the North, by attracting Leave fanatics who otherwise might vote Labour, what leverage will he use to do that, if we are out of the EU? Voters don’t vote to thank politicians for what’s been done, but vote for what they think needs doing next…

Does he think voters will “thank” him for Brexit, or vote based on all the other issues in front of us?

Yes, he absolutely does think voters will thank him. And they probably will. It’ll be ‘man of the people, got the job done, visionary leader and statesman, the only person who could stick it to the EU etc’ all the way through the campaign. Add in some magic money tree promises on the NHS and Law and Order and it’ll be another 5 years with a landslide majority to do what he wants. And you thought a no deal brexit was scary?

The next step is actually getting a deal (or actually hundreds of deals) so we can travel, and trade, and do everything else we currently do. His ‘getting brexit done’ stance will probably still appeal to the brexitty types.

what happens if he “gets Brexit done” before the election, neutralising it somewhat as the central voting issue

He will be able to use it as a “you can trust the bloke who has been sacked twice for lying” line and therefore will be able to promise the earth to those people before **** them over.
Is one view on his tactics.
Another is he is winging in and has boxed himself into a corner.

But if the deal he gets is basically Mays deal, or worse (from a Gammon ‘no surrender’ point of view) then he’ll have Farage screaming ‘BETRAYAL!’ from the sidelines. And as we know, a lot of traditional Tory voters and a hefty chunk of labour ones will buy that shit. They’ll see it as Brexit In Name Only, and demand the invasion of Normandy and the carpet bombing of Dresden.

It’s been said often enough. Brexit is only the start of the process. Voters will trust him to do the right sort of negotiating in the follow-up period because he proved he can get the job done.

And as we know, a lot of traditional Tory voters and a hefty chunk of labour ones will buy that shit.

Depends on who he can get on his side to provide counter propaganda.
At least some of those nutters may be willing to accept Mays deal rebranded in order to get brexit through without a second referendum. Remember its only the initial stage of negotiations so they may think it is worth that surrender and then winning in the next round.
Not saying thats how it will work out since lets face it we are dealing with a bunch of loonies who are rather hard to predict but it may be the outcome he is hoping for.
Plus, of course, you have Cummings who doesnt give a **** about what happens to the tories and will happily watch Johnson and the ERG fight each other to the mutual death.