EU Referendum – are you in or out?

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  • EU Referendum – are you in or out?
  • mattyfez
    Member

    It’s a bit of a paradox alright.

    mattyfez
    Member

    Shock horror, we all know what jonsons game plan is.
    Will corbyn get off his egg box and state an opinion?

    mattyfez
    Member

    Has corbyn even said what he thinks about the supreme Court case?

    He’s a non entity.

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    because if they had been in a S&C situation they could have forced the torys to drop the tuition fees rise. It wasn’t a manifesto commitment so under S&C the lib dems could have opposed it

    I know quite a few lib dem activists – they all agree now that S&C would have been a better option and at the time it was a very finely balanced decision. One they got wrong

    This may or may not be true, I have no idea. But then, why not argue “I hate the LDs because they got a finely balanced decision wrong” rather than “I hate the LDs because tuition fees”?

    Is it not perhaps disingenuous to beat them up for not opposing tuition fees, if what you’re asserting here now is that they’d put themselves into a position where they couldn’t oppose it?

    You (and everyone else) didn’t even mention S&C until I started picking at strings, I’d never heard of it before today.

    Premier Icon kimbers
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    It still is kinda brexity

    Premier Icon Del
    Subscriber

    Cougar, TBF to TJ, he has been banging on about this for what seems like a lifetime. Surprised you’ve missed it.

    Premier Icon batfink
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    Yeah – that article just talks about “relaxing” the visa requirements – not free movement.

    Australians are just as gammony (perhaps more so?) that the British…. immigration is a huge issue over here too.

    tjagain
    Member

    Cougar – I have never said I hate them because of tuition fees – its a minor issue. I hate them for the lies, betrayal and 10 000 dead as a result of their support for the tories

    Premier Icon dazh
    Subscriber

    I hate them for the lies, betrayal and 10 000 dead as a result of their support for the tories

    I just hate them. Charles Kennedy was alright, but that was a long time ago. He can bet he wouldn’t be    standing down liberal candidates to support ex-tory cabinet ministers or rolling out the red carpet for them.

    Premier Icon epicyclo
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    batfink

    …Australians are just as gammony (perhaps more so?) that the British…. immigration is a huge issue over here too

    And could it be directly related to their media being owned by more or less the same foreign billionaires?

    Premier Icon epicyclo
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    dazh

    …Charles Kennedy was alright…

    Not latterly. He appeared to have decent principles, but yet voted with the Tories on too many occasions for my liking.

    Maybe they had something on him.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    Shock horror, we all know what jonsons game plan is.

    I’m not sure what Johnson’s game plan is. I’m still pretty sure he has no plan for Brexit though. So it’s still the Withdrawal Agreement, No Deal, No Brexit, or another extension. That the governments of other countries are sick of Johnson’s claims that he has a new plan but can’t show it to them (or us) is no surprise. If he can’t write it down, he should shut up.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    Cameron stirring it up on Radio4… pointing out that he wasn’t the right person to make the case for Remain during the referendum campaign in northern Labour heartlands, the Labour leader was, but he didn’t do the work.

    hels
    Member

    From where I am standing Johnson’s game plan is unchanged, possibly since primary school – tousle his hair a bit and wing it.

    stevextc
    Member

    Cougar

    This may or may not be true, I have no idea. But then, why not argue “I hate the LDs because they got a finely balanced decision wrong” rather than “I hate the LDs because tuition fees”?

    Del

    Cougar, TBF to TJ, he has been banging on about this for what seems like a lifetime. Surprised you’ve missed it.

    TJ

    Cougar – I have never said I hate them because of tuition fees – its a minor issue. I hate them for the lies, betrayal and 10 000 dead as a result of their support for the tories

    As I think I said pages ago half* the issue with Brexit is a misunderstanding of how (or not) our Parliamentry Democracy works (or doesn’t).

    (*It might not be exactly half)

    The extension to this is seemingly to demonise other parties and include all individuals within that party or not as convenient thus basically going to mud-slinging.
    Social media and online forii simply add to this… lets sling some mud back at Labour ???
    Without trying to do that (and counter 1000’s of deaths with 100,000’s of deaths for “labours war” … the simple answer is that the money was already gone. Labour at the time of the election didn’t even seem to really want to be trying to win… (obviously some did but leadership wise less so – as a previous labour voter at the previous election that was my impression). The stark reality was summed up by Liam Byrne “I’m afraid there’s no money, Best regards and good luck”

    It is disingenuous at best to pretend this didn’t happen or fueled/led to austerity.

    koldun
    Member

    Labour support another Scottish Indyref where as the LD’s don’t.
    This might also influence peoples opinions.

    Sause with that

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    Labour support another Scottish Indyref where as the LD’s don’t.

    Labour have an agreed position on that now? Who’d trust them either way…

    Now, back to EU membership and what to replace it with (or not)… please.

    I just hate them. Charles Kennedy was alright, but that was a long time ago. He can bet he wouldn’t be standing down liberal candidates to support ex-tory cabinet ministers or rolling out the red carpet for them

    Daz, this may sound hilariously insincere because of all the shit I spout on here but the only people you should hate are fascists. Most Tories and Liberal Democrat mps are decent people, they’re just either misguided or cognitively biased in a different way than you or I are.

    Don’t waste your energy.

    tjagain
    Member

    It is absolutely correct to state that austerity was a political decision and did no good whatsoever – reduced growth = reduced tax receipts. there was no need for it and it did no good. Serious damage for no financial gain. It was an excuse to reduce public spending for ideological reasons.

    We are and remain a low tax country.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    So, the EU…

    grumpygit
    Member

    On Scottish independence and membership of the EU, wouldn’t they have to agree border arrangements with Westminster at independence (likely to be an agreement for no border and common trading rules).

    Then as application for EU membership, convince the EU27 of how they would enforce a land border with a third country?

    I don’t see that going well.

    Then as application for EU membership, convince the EU27 of how they would enforce a land border with a third country?

    Ireland has the backstop.

    We’ll have the jockstrap*

    * That’ll keep all the bollocks under control.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    …how they would enforce a land border with a third country?

    Now… imagine Ireland exists.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    CON: 32% (-)
    LDEM: 23% (+4)
    LAB: 21% (-2)
    BREX: 14% (-)
    GRN: 4% (-3)

    But will Labour support a LibDem government with S&C or enter into a formal coalition? [joke]

    Gotta go ride… have fun…

    grumpygit
    Member
    Premier Icon mickyfinn
    Subscriber

    grumpygit wrote:

    On Scottish independence and membership of the EU, wouldn’t they have to agree border arrangements with Westminster at independence (likely to be an agreement for no border and common trading rules).
    Then as application for EU membership, convince the EU27 of how they would enforce a land border with a third country?
    I don’t see that going well.

    Let us not forget the similar situation (minus the troubles) where farms, houses, roads, buildings et al which straddle the border between the borders and Northumberland/Cumbria, do they become Scottish or English and do the Owners get any say in it 🙂

    stevextc
    Member

    Daz, this may sound hilariously insincere because of all the shit I spout on here but the only people you should hate are fascists. Most Tories and Liberal Democrat mps are decent people, they’re just either misguided or cognitively biased in a different way than you or I are.

    Don’t waste your energy.

    I don’t even think you need to say most, many would do…and it’s not so much a waste of energy that destructive use of energy.

    There are problems and there are Problems… and Brexit is at least to me the Capital P.
    The entire thing is a one way street based on splitting traditional party lines and voters.

    With my own cognitive bias it really looks like the turkeys are voting for XMAS.
    I don’t know if I can be convinced otherwise but frankly raving about $EVIL$ parties is most definitely not going to convince me otherwise.

    He can bet he wouldn’t be standing down liberal candidates to support ex-tory cabinet ministers or rolling out the red carpet for them.

    Unlike Labour who made a non aggression pact with the tories in scotland you mean?

    tjagain
    Member

    Looking forward to following todays activites in court. Still impossible to predict but the best lines and arguments seem to be coming from the non government side.

    “the mother of parliaments” was closed down by “the father of lies”,

    tjagain
    Member

    Barclay:

    A rigid approach now at this point is no way to progress a deal and the responsibility sits with both sides to find a solution.

    We are committed to carving out a landing zone and we stand ready to share relevant texts. But it must be in the spirit of negotiation with flexibility and with a negotiating partner that itself is willing to compromise.

    Errmmm newspeak anyone?

    The EU have compromised a lot and are still will and awaiting some proposals that might actually work.

    tjagain
    Member

    John Majors submission:

    The current factual picture, on the material which is available and with regard to the absence of evidence which ought to be available but has not been provided, is deeply concerning. The court is under no obligation to approach this case on the artificially naïve basis that the handful of disclosed documents, the contents of which nobody has been prepared to verify with a statement of truth, should nevertheless be assumed to be entirely accurate and complete when even members of the cabinet do not appear to believe them … It would also be wrong to proceed on that basis, because it would mean that the real issue that has arisen on the facts would not be resolved.

    For a tory PM to be facing a devastating critique from a previous tory PM in court is quite astonishing

    Premier Icon epicyclo
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    grupygot

    On Scottish independence and membership of the EU, wouldn’t they have to agree border arrangements with Westminster at independence (likely to be an agreement for no border and common trading rules).

    Then as application for EU membership, convince the EU27 of how they would enforce a land border with a third country?

    You forget Donald Trump is ½ Scottish, so no doubt he’ll lend us his wall idea.

    And England will pay for it…

    (Well they did last time 🙂 )

    5thElefant
    Member

    And England will pay for it…

    We’d be glad to.

    Epicyclo, if you want to answer this in the proper thread rather than us continuing to crap on this one feel free, but how do you square that circle? I’ve asked a couple of times now and nobody seems to have an answer for our border.

    Premier Icon dogbone
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    Didn’t Europe (well Rome) pay for the wall?

    Premier Icon oldnpastit
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    how they would enforce a land border with a third country?

    How many roads actually cross the border?

    People are not going to be smuggling vast amounts of goods across the empty wastes of the Cheviots on some cheeky footpaths. It’s impractical, and could be caught pretty easily.

    tjagain
    Member

    squirrelking trouble is any answer to the scotland / england border depends on 2 things. What is the position of the rUK in regards to the EU and what attitude will the rUK take

    But yes – basically it will be the same issue as the ireland border but easier to manage

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