EU Referendum – are you in or out?

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  • EU Referendum – are you in or out?
  • tjagain
    Member

    Swinson says Lib Dems open to pro-remain electoral pacts, but not with Labour
    Jo Swinson, the Lib Dem leaders, has also said that her party is in talks with other parties about standing aside in certain seats at the next general election to ensure that pro-remain candidates are elected. But Labour would not be included in such an arrangement, she told BBC Radio Scotland’s Good Morning Scotland programme

    As the Press Association reports, Swinson said that such an agreement had worked well previously, including in the Brecon and Radnorshire by-election last month where Jane Dodds was elected as a new MP for the party. She went on:

    There was obviously success for that kind of arrangement in the Brecon and Radnorshire by-election. Plaid Cymru and the Green party stood aside, stood shoulder to shoulder if you like, with the Liberal Democrats and Jane Dodds was elected to be a very unequivocal voice in parliament for remain. So, that happened already and it’s successful.

    Asked whether the party would stand aside for Labour candidates, the Lib Dem leader said:

    That’s a different question because Labour are not a remain party, Labour are trying to deliver a Labour Brexit. But where we agree with others on stopping Brexit, we are in those discussions.

    From the Grauniad – outright l;ies about the labour position. stupidly backing herself into a corner and those tactics make a tory government and a no deal brexit morte likely as all she is doing is splitting the anti brexit vorte.

    A non agression pact with labour where each stood down in 50 seats would mean no brexit and no tory government

    She is not going to get any deal with the SNP – they will be targetting her seat hard. She is no liberal! Look at her voting record!

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    but not with Labour Corbyn

    He is a vote loser. The party I will be voting for are stuck with him. Why the hell would another party tie themselves to him?

    That’s a different question because Labour are not a remain party

    Is she not just quoting Barry Gardiner there? What is the lie TJ?

    grumpygit
    Member

    Ok so the country is on an election footing, Swinson has ensured the lib Dems campaign on wanting unilateral revoke of A50, and rather than attempting to steal labour voters she is appealing to soft-right remainders to boost her numbers and shrink the Tory vote.

    Their manifesto is explicitly if we win, remain; if not we will work towards remain via a referendum as necessary.

    This seems to leave them open to working with Labour to me, it just depends on Labours final position (again).

    In an election surely she can’t campaign on “we won’t win, so I hereby agree to prop up a labour government as required”
    It will turn off the right and shrink their vote on the left.

    Premier Icon binners
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    That’s a different question because Labour are not a remain party

    She’s merely stating facts. And I’d say they’re facts that willl win votes.

    She’s offering a clear ‘stop Brexit’ message to counter the Tory’s ‘Yay for Brexit’ nonsense, and highlighting the tortured, opaque nature of the ‘are they/aren’t they’ Labour position in all its fence-sitting, dithering ridiculousness

    tjagain
    Member

    The lie is that Labour are a brexit party. gardiner does not create policy. Labour policy is for a referendum in ALL circumstances even if they rework a deal without Mays red lines

    TheBrick
    Member

    If she was serious about stopping brexit and stopping a tory government then she would be working closely with labour

    And if Corbin was serious about stopping Brexit he would behave stepped down a long time ago.

    He is not popular through the nation.
    He is popular amongst his supporters of course but not the greater population. You may argue that things say about him are lies but the Cobin brand is so unpopular now is wider society that is irrelevant.

    tjagain
    Member

    BY doing what she has done in her public statements she is making an alliance of anti brexit forces less likely by making it impossible for labour to join her party as she moves it steadily to the right.

    If she really wanted to stop brexiut she would work with labour not against them and wouldn’t lie about their position. Its obvious she wants to work with the tories after the next election.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    That’s a different question because Labour are not a remain party, Labour are trying to deliver a Labour Brexit. But where we agree with others on stopping Brexit, we are in those discussions.

    The lie is that Labour are a brexit party.

    Where is the lie?

    We have been promised a final say referendum by Labour … that’s enough to win my vote … but Labour policy is still to chase after Brexit … it is not a “Remain party” [yet] … but there are lots (a majority?) of Labour MPs and members who want Brexit stopped, who can be worked with for that end.

    Premier Icon binners
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    If she really wanted to stop brexit she would work with labour not against them

    Why on earth would she commit to co-operate with a party that is committed to delivering ‘The Will of the People’ – the very thing pretty much her entire party voted against yesterday?

    A red unicorns brexit is still brexit

    Premier Icon Cougar
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    Can we just agree that we all understand that Binners thinks that Labour is a leave party, TJ thinks they categorically are not, and the truth is that Labour have been vague and inconsistent for the last three years and change their narrative depending on who’s speaking? That should save us about 200 pages of tedious squabbling.

    Premier Icon kelvin
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    As far as I understood it, Corbyn still wants Red Unicorn Exit. Combined with also saying Labour will be campaigning for a referendum with remain as an option. Which looks a lot like continued poking of his bum on the fence.

    Has he changed his mind to remain? If he had I imagine Swinson might change stance.

    dannyh
    Member

    If she really wanted to stop brexiut she would work with labour not against them

    You might need to show your workings on that one.

    Its obvious she wants to work with the tories after the next election.

    Undoubtedly – but the point you choose not to engage with is ‘which wing’? If the LibDems were to do well in a GE, I can’t help but feel there would be more than one Conservative Party (officially, that is). This is about centrists versus extremists.

    I hardly ever vote but as chance would have it I was planning to vote lib dem this time over a local issue.

    The excellent decision today to scratch all this referendum nonsense and just come out with a clear ‘Revoke & Remain’ makes me all the more glad to be (probably) voting for them for the first time. …and I’m pretty agnostic about the EU/not even especially pro EU or anti-Brexit so I’d imagine this is going to be very popular with remainers and ‘undecideds’ only putting off really hardcore brexiteers. I bet there are plenty of luke warm brexiteers who would prefer clarity to leaving.

    Very good decision.

    I still think Ed Davey is more capable than Jo Swinson.

    PrinceJohn
    Member

    Jo Swinson could be about to destroy the Lib Dems, they are now the anti brexit party, imagine if they went into coalition with the Tories after the next election?
    Given people rightly or wrongly always bring up the student fees, I can’t imagine they could ever forgive that.

    Premier Icon zippykona
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    Lib Dems are also for making sure that these housing developments that are springing up come with the infrastructure to support them.

    A clear position that everyone except for builders and corrupt councillors will agree with.

    tjagain
    Member

    Why can Swinson not adopt a position like the SNP which is basically ” we will always vote against a tory queens speech and never support them, we will work with other progressive parties where our aims coincide and we will fight for our own policies where we can”

    You know – something honest and clear.

    the SNP will be far more important after the next election than the lib dems.

    dannyh
    Member

    You know – something honest and clear.

    I think we have reached peak irony given your support for Corbyn’s strategy.

    Premier Icon nickc
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    imagine if they went into coalition with the Tories after the next election?

    TBH I can’t imagine any other political party would look to co-operate with the Tory party as it currently stands apart from the Brexit party.

    Premier Icon kimbers
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    Good analysis of Johnsons options

    Premier Icon slowoldman
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    Jo Swinson could be about to destroy the Lib Dems,

    68% of LibDem voters voted remain in 2016. Revoke seems an obvious policy for them. 65% of Labour voters were remain too, something the Labour party ought to recognise.

    tjagain
    Member

    Have you seen Raaaaaaab with his ” Eu must show flexibility ” nonsense?

    Premier Icon binners
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    They’re intent on crashing us out

    All this rhetoric from Raab and the rest of them is just laying the ground for the blame game that follows.

    It’ll be everybody else’s fault. As usual

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    65% of Labour voters were remain too, something the Labour party ought to recognise.

    The problem is that Labour really need the 35% otherwise they’ll never win an election. It makes no difference to the Lib Dems really.

    Premier Icon rone
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    Why on earth would she commit to co-operate with a party that is committed to delivering ‘The Will of the People’ – the very thing pretty much her entire party voted against yesterday?

    Because she’s a flat out opportunist?

    ernielynch
    Member

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7464961/How-3-3million-donations-RNLI-spent-abroad.html

    That article represents the Daily Mail’s long-standing xenophobia and racism at its very worse, it is truly crass and appalling.

    As is the tabloid style it doesn’t make any openly racist comments, it relies instead on dog-whistle politics – insinuations, inferences, and conjecture. None of it usual of course.

    But what is interesting is that reference to the article should have been posted on a thread about Brexit. There is nothing that I can see in it which relates to Brexit.

    However the purpose of doing so is quite obvious. It is to maintain the continuing narrative that the half of the voting UK electorate who voted Brexit are racist. The actual reality that Far-Right enjoys no electoral success in the UK, unlike most of Europe, is quite simply ignored (awkward facts such as Tommy Robinson losing his deposit are dismissed as unexplained bleeps)

    It is of course precisely the same dog-whistle politics – insinuations, inferences, and conjecture, that the Daily Mail is guilty of.

    One of the fascinating revelations I have discovered about the Brexit debate is the apparent complete lack of self-awareness shown by middle-class liberals. Crass stupidity, anti-democracy, and racism, is what they accuse those who disagree with them of, all the while ignoring those identical failings in themselves.

    There are far too many examples to mention but here are a couple more.

    They claim to be “internationalists” but the whole EU project represents apartheid on a global scale. “Separate Development” which is the governing principle of apartheid ideology, goes to the very heart of the EU project, but instead of awkwardly and irrationally drawn Bantustans territories continents are used as defined boundaries.

    I once asked a Remainer why Bangladesh could never apply to join the EU, she instantly replied that they could apply to join ASEAN. Apparently segregation isn’t racism. No one told the segregationists of the Deep South in the USA that whites only public lavatories were okay, as long as black people were also allowed to have their own public lavatories.

    Another, completely different example, is the middle-class liberal attitude towards the alleged crass stupidity, and lack of political sophistication, of those who disagree with them, which apparently makes them unfit to have a political opinion (unless it doesn’t contradict their own). On this very thread people were proudly announcing that despite voting Labour all their adult lives they had voted for non-Labour Remain candidates in local council elections.

    Now local council elections are solely about providing local services and infrastructure, they have nothing to do with the EU or membership of it. Presumably if someone has previously voted Labour in local elections it is purely because they believed that the Labour councillors would be the best for their local services. But they claimed that they wanted to “teach Labour a lesson”, so they voted for candidates that they otherwise wouldn’t have voted for. Local services and infrastructure were no longer important to them.

    It was of course a classic case of crass stupidity, lack of political sophistication, and shooting oneself in the foot, imo, the very thing that they accuse those who voted Leave of.

    But perhaps one of the best embodiment of middle-class liberal lack of self-awareness is Caroline Lucas. Lucas talks passionately about free movement, even after Brexit. But she of course talking about positive discrimination in favour of Europeans. She doesn’t extend that to the free movement of people from say Jamaica or Hong Kong. Whichever way you look at it it’s straightforward racism. It is every bit as racist as anything that comes out of Donald Trump’s mouth. Donald Trump too doesn’t make direct racists comments But most people on here would accept that he and his supporters are racist – building walls to keep certain people out, even if they have no legal right to enter the US, is racist, banning the Muslims from entering the US, even though they are not a race, is racist.

    More recently Caroline Lucas has outed herself as not only being racist but also sexist. Last month, in an act of complete bourgeois liberal unawareness, she wrote to ten female politicians, all white of course, suggesting that they form an all female emergency cabinet to stop a no-deal Brexit (just read stop Brexit).

    In an appalling example of gender stereotyping she claimed that women would see things from a different perspective to men. Although to be fair to Lucas she was forced to apologise for forgetting that she knew some black female politicians.

    In most of Europe the challenge and the threat comes from the Far-Right, here in the UK it comes from the anti-democratic and neo-racist middle-class liberals. Those challenges and threats should be recognised and both opposed.

    Ah, that bell-end, Labour Eoin. A Lexiteer, like yourself rone.

    tjagain
    Member

    Lib dem policy ( until yesterday) was for a second eu referendum but never a second scottish referendum – now that just holds no logical sense.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    Because she’s a flat out opportunist?

    Absolutely she is. Most people now want Brexit stopped. Most people don’t want Corbyn as PM. She is out to get their votes. She is very much trying to get voters to switch from Tory and Labour to LibDem, and consistency with what she, or anyone in her party, has said before is irrelevant to her. She is fighting the next election, not one a decade ago.

    tjagain
    Member

    The actual reality that Far-Right enjoys no electoral success in the UK

    Not quite – UKIP/ Brexit party are both far right in my book with the adherence to markets etc and the racist policies they have and the tory oparty is not far behind – hard right not far right perhaps.

    the fascist parties have become mainstream and the right wing party moved sharply right to join them

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    There is nothing that I can see in it which relates to Brexit.

    I didn’t read any further. Can I have a summary please?

    tjagain
    Member

    Kelvin – nope – she is going all out for tory votes knowing her party is dead in Scotland and in most labour heartlands. Thats why she has moved the party so far to the right and why she is ruling out co operation with labour but not with the tories ( only a Johnson led tory party)

    Premier Icon binners
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    A speech from 2008, Rone?

    Damning stuff!

    Finger on the Corbynite pulse, as ever, comrade. Its good job nowt’s changed since then, eh?

    *wanders off to play Snake on my Nokia and toast the end of boom and bust economics

    Premier Icon kimbers
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    In most of Europe the challenge and the threat comes from the Far-Right, here in the UK it comes from the anti-democratic and neo-racist middle-class liberals. Those challenges and threats should be recognised and both opposed.

    absolute bobbins, what threat are the pro-EU middle class liberals actually posing here in the UK?

    Neither Cyprus or Turkey are part of Europe, but are sort of joining (OK Turkey moving backwards, but still)

    none cheer Brexit louder than the hard right & racists, if thats the side youve chosen, then just admit it

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    she is going all out for tory votes knowing her party is dead in Scotland and in most labour heartlands. Thats why she has moved the party so far to the right and why she is ruling out co operation with labour but not with the tories ( only a Johnson led tory party)

    She has worked hard to prevent a vote for the LibDems from being seen as a proxy vote for Corbyn. The more people slate her for doing so… the more she succeeds. And, I agree, this is mostly about getting votes in Tory/LibDem marginals. We need LibDems to win those seats.

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    Hah. You lot have all been clamouring for intelligent pro-Brexit contributions, now you have one – thanks ernie.

    And it’s not getting much of a response..?

    Premier Icon dogbone
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    Ernie – you forgot to mention Australia being in Eurovision. Madness.

    So I’m MORE anti-democratic and racist than a fascist? Mmmmmmmmmm.

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    none cheer Brexit louder than the hard right & racists, if thats the side youve chosen, then just admit it

    Unhelpfully divisive comment. There IS a genuine left wing honourable argument for Brexit. I can admit that, despite being a remainer. Nothing is ever black and white.

    They claim to be “internationalists” but the whole EU project represents apartheid on a global scale. “Separate Development” which is the governing principle of apartheid ideology, goes to the very heart of the EU project, but instead of awkwardly and irrationally drawn Bantustans territories continents are used as defined boundaries.

    I once asked a Remainer why Bangladesh could never apply to join the EU, she instantly replied that they could apply to join ASEAN. Apparently segregation isn’t racism. No one told the segregationists of the Deep South in the USA that whites only public lavatories were okay, as long as black people were also allowed to have their own public lavatories.

    The is one of the best displays of reducto ad absurdum that I have ever seen on here. Comparing apartheid South Africa to EU policy is grossly offensive to those who lived in Apartheid South Africa. Secondly, the fact that the EU likely would not take Bangladesh has nothing to do with segregationism but shared political and cultural attitudes and it is likely that Bangladeshis would not appreciate being in a political union with a majority white Christian continent 10000km away.

    You are using an argument and copying the language of social justice types to say something that is offensive to minorities and to defend against accusations of racism.

    You know we aren’t leaving the EU because it’s too racist for us, you are just a clever but bigoted troll.

    Premier Icon kelvin
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    Unhelpfully divisive comment.

    Plenty of those on this page. I’ll guess at there being many in the long post I haven’t read yet (I will do later).

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