EU Referendum – are you in or out?

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  • EU Referendum – are you in or out?
  • Flaperon
    Member

    Who said that coming out for a 2nd ref wouldn’t lose Labour votes? Hmm

    I won’t vote Labour while Corbyn leads the party. I think he’s an ineffective leader, and the only reason we’re in this situation is because of his pro-Brexit half-arsed opposition.

    I also suspect that he’d be almost impossible to shift for years from his position if he ends up leading a caretaker government.

    Premier Icon rone
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    Who said that coming out for a 2nd ref wouldn’t lose Labour votes? Hmm.

    Yep, and this is why Labour took the path they took originally.

    Premier Icon kimbers
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    Yep, and this is why Labour took the path they took originally.

    which worked 2 years ago, but they need a clear message now (+ as Johnson has shown, probably a new leader)

    as many of us said Corbyn’s change of stance was too little, too late

    Premier Icon dazh
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    Try working for a local council for a while… and see what people really think about government “close” to them.

    Once again you miss the point. People may not like the local council, but they understand that they are accountable. If they don’t like what they’re getting they call their local councillor or pick up the phone to have a go at some poor official in the council offices (and yes I have worked for a council actually!). Who do they call in the EU?

    But I don’t believe they understand it any more than those in the middle or the top.

    They understand the impact politics has on the lives of ordinary people, because they live it every day. Can those in the middle and professional classes say the same?

    I won’t vote Labour while Corbyn leads the party. I think he’s an ineffective leader, and the only reason we’re in this situation is because of his pro-Brexit half-arsed opposition.

    Total bollox. Sorry I’d elaborate on why but there’s really no point is there? If this is really what you believe, then I’m afraid you’re no better than the ‘idiots’ who were misled by Boris and Farage and voted against their own interests.

    ferrals
    Member

    he’s an ineffective leader

    @dazh – this isnt total bollocks, whatevr you think of his politics, his leadership is below what is currentl required. Competing factions of the labour party are saying whatever they want sending contradicting messagea so there is little clarity. I believe it is primarily for this reason that Labour are not polling beter and why peopel think Corbyn is untrustworthy. If he was a beeter leader there would be consistent messages coming out from all reltively senior members of the labour party.

    Premier Icon kimbers
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    Competing factions of the labour party are saying whatever they want sending contradicting messagea so there is little clarity.

    If he was a beeter leader there would be consistent messages coming out from all reltively senior members of the labour party.

    this!!

    the country is polarised & its crunch time, sitting on the fence was the wrong long term strategy

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    They understand the impact politics has on the lives of ordinary people, because they live it every day.

    Do they know what specific policies are affecting their lives and how? Are they struggling because of austerity, or immigration, or Brexit, or what? If they are in work how does austerity affect them?

    You have to understand a little bit of economics and politics to make sense of it, and because it’s not taught in schools you have to want to learn about. Which few people do.

    This is why I think politics and economics should be mandatory in schools, even a short course as part of citizenship or something.

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    the country is polarised & its crunch time, sitting on the fence was the wrong long term strategy

    Any attempt to retrospectively decide a different strategy would have been better is just going to be wishful thinking I’m afraid.

    Premier Icon dissonance
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    If he was a beeter leader there would be consistent messages coming out from all reltively senior members of the labour party.

    Sorry but this is utterly moronic. The only way he could impose that sort of discipline is if he could easily sack those senior members or have some other form of serious influence.
    Blair did well since the MPs were so low at the beginning he managed to stack it with loyalists to him. Even then though he got defeated multiple times.
    Cameron was similar looked all competent up until the point he went for something that his MPs disagreed with him on (plus a large part of the media) at which point he got his arse kicked.
    The only way you get a completely consistent message is a)ability to threaten b)creating a cult c)where conditions are in your favour.

    Premier Icon dudeofdoom
    Subscriber

    Once again you miss the point. People may not like the local council, but they understand that they are accountable. If they don’t like what they’re getting they call their local councillor or pick up the phone to have a go at some poor official in the council offices (and yes I have worked for a council actually!). Who do they call in the EU?

    Hmm their MEP perhaps 🙂

    ferrals
    Member

    Sorry but this is utterly moronic. The only way he could impose that sort of discipline is if he could easily sack those senior members or have some other form of serious influence

    Bullshit. Good leaders get people on board, they have a strategy and get people to buy into it. Instead, there have been several occasions in the last year or so when one shadow cabinent member has said one thing and then a couple of hours later it has been flatly contradictd by another.

    He can easily alter his shadow cabinent if he feels it isnt performing adequately.

    EDIT. Perhaps more to the point, from an electoral (/possible second refernedum) point of view; its whether the gneral public percieve him as a good leader and trustworthy. I know very few that do (althouh the same goes for BJ); and I do think this is due to the lack of consistency among the labour front bench.

    Premier Icon dazh
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    Hmm their MEP perhaps

    Ha ha ha ha! Seriously? And what good will that actually do? There’s a reason no one knows who their MEP is, and that’s because they are a complete waste of space.

    that’s because they are a complete waste of space

    If only they’d bothered to get off their arse and vote in a proper MEP instead of a one issue protest group that deliberately messes in their own nest. Then they might have an MEP worth contacting.

    what molgrips said about economics and politics, x2

    Premier Icon dissonance
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    Bullshit. Good leaders get people on board,

    Sorry but this really is buying into the myth of the all glorious leader. Leaders work best when they get to chose who is in their team. Whereas Corbyn is stuck with a bunch of people who hate anything vaguely left of centre and seemingly want more to destroy the left resurgence in the Labour party than anything else. It wasnt just Corbyn, although they doubled down on him, but Ed Milliband as well.

    He can easily alter his shadow cabinent if he feels it isnt performing adequately.

    It depends on who he gets to chose from. Its a limited bunch especially since many of the backbenches would prefer everything to end in flames rather than to seriously support him. Since they see that as their best way of regaining control of Labour.

    Premier Icon dissonance
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    There’s a reason no one knows who their MEP is, and that’s because they are a complete waste of space.

    Yes there is. Which is the UK hasnt bothered taking the EU elections seriously.
    So we have lots of UKIP/Brexit MEPs who cant be arsed to do their jobs and even in the other parties they come across as second rate most of the time. Which bearing in mind the mess Westminster is in is saying something.
    That isnt the EU fault though but our own political and cultural structure.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    that’s because they are a complete waste of space

    I have a councillor that responds to queries, and an MEP who does likewise (alongside some who do not)… but I have an MP (and I guess so do you) who blocks constituents on social media if they ask any question of him at all, and leaves his team to send back vacuous answers to emails and letters. I am far better represented in the European Parliament than I am at Westminster. The “I don’t know what they do, so they must be doing shit all” attitude to our MEPs is part of why we are where we are.

    Premier Icon kelvin
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    We should probably save all the “people don’t trust Corbyn” stuff for the other thread… but I still do not, even though I will be voting Labour at the next election. He isn’t suddenly going to become the man who the country gets behind, sadly, and needs to move on. Wishing it otherwise is not enough.

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    There’s a reason no one knows who their MEP is, and that’s because they are a complete waste of space.

    They are? Have you ever dealt with one?

    You can’t blame them for the fact that most people in the UK don’t engage with EU politics. Despite moaning about the influence the EU has on their lives. Moronic if you ask me.

    Premier Icon dazh
    Subscriber

    They are? Have you ever dealt with one?

    Point missed again. I have no doubt many MEPs are hardworking and engaged with their constituents, but what difference does that make? They go back to Strasbourg and do what? Has anyone got any examples of an MEP successfully changing EU policy based on the representations of their constituents? As far as I’m aware there are very few, if any, examples of the EU parliament vetoing or changing EU legislation as proposed by the EU commission. I’m happy to be corrected but the influence the electorate has on EU policy via their MEPs is negligible.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    Has anyone got any examples of an MEP successfully changing EU policy based on the representations of their constituents?

    No, but have you got any examples of the opposite? Have you ever actually tried engaging in the process? If not, then you’re just making stuff up to smear the EU.

    As far as I’m aware there are very few, if any, examples of the EU parliament vetoing or changing EU legislation as proposed by the EU commission.

    This is because the Commission proposes legislation in consultation with Parliament so that it’ll pass. It’s not comabtive like in UK domestic politics. There’s no point in the Commission proposing something that they know will be voted down. Haven’t we already covered this?

    The UK electorate probably have as much influence on EU policy as they do on UK policy.

    The UK is about as well repesented in the “big” EU positions, as other member nations, as far as I know.

    They go back to Strasbourg and do what?

    Stand in EU parliament, table proposals and reports, vote on stuff, that sort of thing.

    It’s a bit like the UK parliament, just organised slightly different.

    I feel like I’ve just written something incredibly patronising, but it seems necessary.

    Premier Icon kimbers
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    As far as I’m aware there are very few, if any, examples of the EU parliament vetoing or changing EU legislation as proposed by the EU commission.

    are you being willfully ignorant?

    making amendments is exactly what MEPs spend their time doing

    https://www.europarl.europa.eu/committees/en/amendments.html

    Im sure as a job its dull as dishwater (why do you think farage never bothered to turn up to his fisheries committee)

    Premier Icon dissonance
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    Stand in EU parliament, table proposals and reports, vote on stuff, that sort of thing.

    Attend committees and push for change via that or, alternately, dont bother turning up and then pretend to be the champion of the British fishing industry.
    My opinion is that our MEPs do badly under perform on the whole but that isnt the EUs fault. Thats our countries fault and I cant see how the EU could fix it short of measures which would be, accurately, called undemocratic hence why the EU doesnt try them.

    So I had a quick google, for no real reason. I figured I’d look up a couple of UK MEPs just for giggles. To see what “they” do in Strasbourg.

    So. Edward Macmillan-Scott, UK MEP, was one of the European VPs for a number of years – fairly senior position really, so we should all probably know who he is, right? He did stuff involving election oversight in countries that have a tendency to be a bit bent at election time and other stuff as part of a Human Rights and Democracy role.

    Or, Diana Wallis, UK MEP again, she was another Euro VP (first British female Euro VP apparently) – in at the start of the transparency register, to try and stop lobbyists from buying up politicans, also set up some legislation banning trade of Seal products and probably some other stuff.

    On a less humanitarian and more commercial note, everyone’s least favourite Lib Dem leader, Clegg, steered the telephone loop unbundling regs in a more customer friendly direction while he was there.

    We’re apparently quite well represented in the top jobs.

    I feel quite sad that Britain has decided it would be better to do absolutely no more of this sort of stuff.

    are you being willfully ignorant?

    No, it’s not wilful.

    Premier Icon Del
    Subscriber

    There’s a reason no one knows who their MEP is, and that’s because they are a complete waste of space.

    I have no doubt many MEPs are hardworking and engaged with their constituents, but what difference does that make?

    Point missed again.

    when you’ve made one, and don’t directly contradict it with your next post, maybe you’ll get taken more seriously.

    Gowrie
    Member

    are you being willfully ignorant?

    No, it’s not wilful.

    🙂 🙂 🙂

    tjagain
    Member

    A timely reminder from Merkel of how a top politician operates telling Johnson she will listen to anything and if he comes up with a workable arrangement for the border the backstop is no longer needed – and he has 30 days to do it.

    Showing she is not being intransigent and throwing the onus back on Johnson.

    mattyfez
    Member

    Johnson and the UK press will still spin it as ‘we’ve done our best by offering vague platitudes but the nasty EU won’t negociate” though.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    The UK press (and TV&Radio media) have already reported various “come forward with a proposal that can be ready to go before the end of the implementation period and we can write it into the political declaration to prevent the backstop having any use or force” comments from EU officials and member state governments as “refuse to talk”… they’ll treat this much the same I fear.

    Premier Icon kimbers
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    I’m genuinely surprised at how easily Merkel played him

    Premier Icon Poopscoop
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    kimbers

    Subscriber
    I’m genuinely surprised at how easily Merkel played him

    Was great to see though want it?

    A Poundland Trump up against a true and experienced world leader.

    … He basically just caved.

    Yes Boris, the onus is on YOU.

    Premier Icon dazh
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    On a less humanitarian and more commercial note, everyone’s least favourite Lib Dem leader, Clegg, steered the telephone loop unbundling regs in a more customer friendly direction

    If they’re the best examples we can find of MEPs showing their worth it’s little wonder people voted for brexit in their millions.

    It’s pretty hilarious how appreciative everyone suddenly is of their MEPs and EU politics. Can any of you honestly say you knew who your MEP was before 2016?

    tjagain
    Member

    Kimbers – really? She is a politician of a stature we no longer have. I don’t always agree with her but she is astute, well informed, has good moral values and above all else experience. She played him with ease and aplomb

    I said a while back that I was looking forward to this meeting. Johnson has no idea how to deal with women like her. A part of his stunted emotional growth. He simply is unable to cope.

    Gonna be interesting how they try to spin it.

    Premier Icon johnnystorm
    Subscriber

    It’s pretty hilarious how appreciative everyone suddenly is of their MEPs and EU politics. Can any of you honestly say you knew who your MEP was before 2016?

    I know very little of what the components do in my TV but by and large I’m happy with the overall effect.

    Also, having seen “our” politicians versus EU politicians of late I know which I have more faith in.

    Reading all the dazhsplaining…it’s like having a Lexiteer version of jambalaya back in the thread. Refreshing.

    mattyfez
    Member

    I’m genuinely surprised at how easily Merkel played him

    I’m supprised that that you’re supprised lol!

    27 nations, the most powerful trading bloc in human history V’s boris Johnson who’s doing nothing more than parrot theresa may in more patronising way!?

    Premier Icon dazh
    Subscriber

    it’s like having a Lexiteer version of jambalaya

    Apart from the fact I’m a remainer and always have been. Got anything to say other than juvenile smartarse comments?

    Premier Icon AD
    Subscriber

    Well I laughed anyway deadlydarcy 🙂

    Premier Icon kimbers
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    What’s really funny is that Dominic Cummings has postponed an operation to strategize for Johnson

    He’s made sure every statement by Johnson and his cabinet, every staged photo op & headline in the rw press has carefully built on the narrative that we can’t get a deal because it’s all the EUs fault…

    A 10 minute press conference with Merkel and Johnson has managed to shift responsibility onto himself

    He’s gonna go full Tucker on bojo tomorrow

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