I’m all in favour of an internal UK border. Just draw it between Berwick and Carlisle.

Oh – and the Poundshop Trump epithet wasn’t even funny the first time, now it’s just tedious.

Ouch – that burns 😉

So we contacted the Home Office and said oh hi, we have about a thousand EU students and another 200 starting in 3 weeks, and your halfwit home secretary says she’s ending freedom of movement on the 31st of October. What should we do about that? And they said, well we don’t know. This advice incidentally is a premium service that we pay them for.

“Prepare for brexit”

Be interesting to see how many pull out.

Of course our own language (and other) students taking a year of their course in other EU countries could do with some information from the government as well…

Oh – and the Poundshop Trump epithet wasn’t even funny the first time, now it’s just tedious

Substantially less tedious than ‘our nationalism is better than yours’, but by all means carry on.

I don’t get it. The remain block is the most cohesive group, or at least ought to be. The leave faction is a collective of about 8 versions of leave, and there’s only going to be one. How the **** are we still losing this argument!?

How the **** are we still losing this argument!?

because remain are playing the brexiteers game. Don’t refute the lies, you can’t. Sell what the EU offers. The downside, is brexiteers think the UK is special and more important than it is. The other issue, the media, you can’t get around a largely pro-Brexit landscape.

How the **** are we still losing this argument!?

A whole number of reasons. The first being that remain did lose the argument, the second being that instead of accepting that and choosing to mitigate the fallout, that side of the argument decided to go full on militant (a little late I might add), the third that instead of listening they called everyone racists and idiots, and finally by directing their anger at politicians who weren’t at fault and supporting those who were.

Who would have mitigated the fallout, what would they have proposed, who would have taken it through parliament, how would the public be persuaded to accept it? What shape does this least worse Brexit take? What mandate was it based on? What, who, how… or shut up complaining about people not getting behind this undeclared thing.

There is no possibility of mitigation given the tories red lines.

The first being that remain did lose the argument

It wasn’t even an argument, that would suggest they listened at all. The referendum “debate” was an exercise in propaganda and populism.

the third that instead of listening they called everyone racists and idiots

I spent a lot of time listening. Do you want to know what I found. Pro death penalty, the NHS needs privatising, the problems with the NHS are largely the fault of immigrants that take the piss and steal everything not nailed down, they don’t want to pay tax, they don’t want to pay minimum wage, Europeans are a genuine enemy to the U.K., Scotland can go **** itself bunch of subsidy scroungers anyway the “sweaty jocks”, Trump is a good guy, no deal is the best option, well make a success of it because we are basically superior to those Europeans and it’s them holding us back. And for good measure climate change isn’t much of an issue.

I hope to **** the ***** I “listened to” form just a tiny minority of leave voters.

piemonster

Member

The first being that remain did lose the argument

It wasn’t even an argument, that would suggest they listened at all. The referendum “debate” was an exercise in propaganda and populism.

the third that instead of listening they called everyone racists and idiots

I spent a lot of time listening. Do you want to know what I found. Pro death penalty, the NHS needs privatising, the problems with the NHS are largely the fault of immigrants that take the piss and steal everything not nailed down, they don’t want to pay tax, they don’t want to pay minimum wage, Europeans are a genuine enemy to the U.K., Scotland can go **** itself bunch of subsidy scroungers anyway the “sweaty jocks”, Trump is a good guy, no deal is the best option, well make a success of it because we are basically superior to those Europeans and it’s them holding us back. And for good measure climate change isn’t much of an issue.

I hope to **** the ***** I “listened to” form just a tiny minority of leave voters.

Very much the same as I got from trying the challenging conversation with leave voters at work!
Mostly it was “I read it in the DM”

choosing to mitigate the fallout

by accepting a ‘solution’ that pleases only a fraction of those that voted leave. so now pretty much everyone is unhappy and poorer. or we could remain, so more people are happier, and everyone is not poorer. let me think.

Nice one Del

It’s ok Johnson has a plan & it’s a doozey

What’s Boris Johnson’s big idea to replace the backstop? Allies tell me he wants a bilateral agreement with Ireland that will see Dublin diverge from EU rules temporarily to share a common rule book with the UKhttps://t.co/3jspe1TvYS

— Tom Newton Dunn (@tnewtondunn) August 20, 2019

that side of the argument decided to go full on militant (a little late I might add), the third that instead of listening they called everyone racists and idiots

The majority of the cases I have seen wasnt calling everyone racists and idiots but saying that a venn diagram of leavers and remainers had those two categories intersecting primarily with the leavers rather than remainers.

the problem being those who are lapping it up, thinking that he’s finally showing some robust negotiation, and is showing Johnny foreigner that we Brits won’t be messed around…. 🙄

Yep as I keep banging on he’s been on a campaigning footing from the day he got the presidency.

All this stuff is just soundbites that get played back on the media.

A lot of people really aren’t into politics they only get the 2 second sound bites on the telly and don’t bother digging deeper.

The only option he had, (for his benefit and party) was to just force ahead with no-deal, a condition of the extension was to close the negotiation so unless he was going back with something that changed the read lines that was the offer.

If parliament blocks his no exit that will be used as propoganda for the upcoming election.

He’s got to Out Brexit the Brexit party to get his number up which is why the shite rhetoric is being spouted.

How the **** are we still losing this argument!?

Because mostly.its not based on reason, it’s based on emotion. You can’t change that with a rational argument.

Because mostly.its not based on reason, it’s based on emotion. You can’t change that with a rational argument.

+1000

Dublin diverge from EU rules

Which side of the Irish border diverging makes most sense ?

I’m sure it’s bindun on here but I’ve only just seen it:

Thing is the remainers have not lost the argument. Polls now clearly show a significant majority for remain. Thats a shift to remain – because we have won the argument

Why do you think leavers are so against another referendum -they know they would lose it

Good to see, as expected, Johnson has now said its all the remainers fault that we don’t already have a fantistc deal.

That’s his plan? He wants Ireland to leave the EU too? Flippin’ heck.

As plans go, that’s flawless. Of course they will.

I do believe he’s just gone full retard.

Ian Holloway believes the EU is responsible for VAR and Brexit will get rid of it.

This is the level of stupidity you’re up against with the stereotypical Brexiteer.

To paraphrase the Terminator movie

It can’t be bargained with. It can’t be reasoned with. It doesn’t feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you have left the EU

https://twitter.com/JamesMelville/status/1164058646634008579?s=19

That’s his plan? He wants Ireland to leave the EU too? Flippin’ heck.

At least its a bit more original and thought through than “new technology will solve everything”. Leaving aside the teeny weeny flaw that Ireland wont go for it its an improvement.

I’m sure Jacob Rees Mogg likes this proposal. Given that he still thinks its the 19th Century.

What do you mean, we can’t tell the Irish what to do any more?

What do you mean, we can’t tell the Irish what to do any more?

Country obsessed with sovereignty thinks it can tell a sovereign nation what to do

A lot of people really aren’t into politics they only get the 2 second sound bites on the telly and don’t bother digging deeper.

This is only partly true. Being into politics isn’t exclusively the preserve of people who follow the news and argue about it on internet forums. It’s true most people don’t bother getting into it in detail, but that’s because they have more important things to do, like working, running a family etc, and I think its probably fair to say that the majority of these are at the lower end of the income scale. I’d argue however they understand much more about politics than their better off politicos on the internet think, because they feel the direct impact of it on their lives through lower incomes, poorer or dissappearing public services which they depend on, and yes, even things like the much derided subject of local bus services.

Those of us who are better off are insulated from much of politics and government. It doesn’t really affect us like it does those at the bottom. And those at the bottom feel like they’ve been cast aside and forgotten about. The further a government is from the people the more the people will hate it. That’s why they don’t like the EU.

The further a government is from the people the more the people will hate it. That’s why they don’t like the EU.

Try working for a local council for a while… and see what people really think about government “close” to them. Advise growing a thick skin first.

I’m not sure dazh.

For certain, the people at the bottom feel the impact more.

But I don’t believe they understand it any more than those in the middle or the top.

I’m not sure dazh.

For certain, the people at the bottom feel the impact more.

But I don’t believe they understand it any more than those in the middle or the top

100%

Look at the things that get wrongly attributed to the EU. For example, years of Tory austerity cuts have decimated public services for those who need and use them the most, yet the leave campaign convinced those people that it was the fault of immigrants and the EU.

Well Johnson seems to be winning back the bxp voters

But Corbyn has lost those that go to the lib Dems…

Westminster voting intention:

CON: 42% (+17)
LAB: 28% (-6)
LDEM: 15% (-)
BREX: 5% (-5)
GRN: 3% (-)
TIG/CHUK: 1% (-)
UKIP: 0% (-4)

via @KantarTNS, 15 – 19 Aug
Chgs. w/ 13 May

— Britain Elects (@britainelects) August 21, 2019

[gulps nervously] it’s gonna be hard Brexit followed by austerity on steroids !

THose numbers don’t quite add up – totals unly 94% (so some parties not included) and sum of change is +2.

Howeever, as Libs cosntnat and labour down; with only tories rising, it sugests labour votors switcing to tory, as incongrous as it sounds.

CON: 42% (+17)
LAB: 28% (-6)

Who said that coming out for a 2nd ref wouldn’t lose Labour votes? Hmm.

I’d argue however they understand much more about politics than their better off politicos on the internet think, because they feel the direct impact of it on their lives

Disagree. Just because you feel the impact of something, doesn’t mean you automatically understand that something. See the list of grievances people blame on the EU.

That’s his plan? He wants Ireland to leave the EU too? Flippin’ heck.

lots on twitter suggesting maybe he should offer to buy it instead…

Who said that coming out for a 2nd ref wouldn’t lose Labour votes? Hmm.

Labours problem is that their message is still not clear

May was not trusted by Leavers on Brexit, the tories replaced her with a true no deal brexiteer & won back bxp voters

Corbyn not trusted on brexit by remainers, Labour have stuck with him (& hes still not said he’d back remain in a 2nd ref) and the labour voters havent returned from the greens/libdems

the fact that you need a flow chart to understand labours stance on what is ultimately a binary issue is a huge tactical error

also the kantar poll may be an outlier , but there is a trend

Westminster voting intention:

CON: 31% (+3)
LAB: 25% (-2)
LDEM: 19% (+1)
BREX: 12% (-2)

via @BMGResearch
Chgs. w/ Jul

— Britain Elects (@britainelects) August 18, 2019

Because mostly.its not based on reason, it’s based on emotion. You can’t change that with a rational argument.

Absolutely bang on. And as an added bonus you can decry all argument as patronising or ‘tactics’.

It is genius in its simplicity. Until you realise where it leads, of course…..

Yep, the two track denouncements of “Project Fear” and “out of touch elites” has been very very well executed. And those who led this approach are now in charge of the government, and the new “Conservative Brexit Party” that is likely to be just as successful at pushing aside any considered opposition. Especially when you add in the additional attack lines of “undemocratic” and “unpatriotic” that will be ramped up this year.