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EU Referendum – are you in or out?
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tjagainFull Member
Kimbers – I have said for a long time what the UK needs is a progressive ( anti tory) front foir a single election on a platform of constitutional reform and now anti brexit. A single election would do it if all parties would join. We would never have another tory government if we had a decent system of PR
Labour simply will not play ball – especially with the SNP.
scotroutesFull MemberSwinson has ruled out an electoral pact with the SNP because they are separatists. Just no one tell her about PC, OK?
alpinFree MemberIts hard to take you seriously when you come onto a thread about europe and brexit and then spout economic rubbish that belongs on the side of a bus.
+1…..
The only way they’ll suffer is if we manage to get boris and his entire cabel of erg nutters into parliament on bonfire night and re-enact the gunpowder plot, but this time do the job right.
No need to blow up parliament…. Quite a nice building. Just need to find out where the erg bunch meet up or, even better, just take them out one by one.
Fresh Goods Friday 696: The Middling Edition
Latest Singletrack VideosFresh Goods Friday 696: The Middlin...kimbersFull MemberGlorious development. The ministry of fake news will be headed up by the man who doesn’t believe in experts.
EXCLUSIVE in tomorrow’s Sunday Telegraph:
Michael Gove takes on Brexit fake news with new rapid rebuttal unit to quash 'myths and half-truths' about no-deal https://t.co/9VZu92KFgX via @Telegraph
— Christopher Hope📝 (@christopherhope) August 10, 2019
epicycloFull MemberCame across this and posted it here for the benefit of those who don’t understand why Priti Patel’s comments about starving the Irish are so offensive.
It’s mind boggling that a govt could do that to it’s own people.
The Mass Graves of Ireland
Ireland starved because its food, from 40 to 70 shiploads per day, was removed at gunpoint by 12,000 British constables reinforced by the British militia, battleships, excise vessels, Coast Guard and by 200,000 British soldiers (100,000 at any given moment) The attached map shows the never-before-published names and locations in Ireland of the food removal regiments
Thus, Britain seized from Ireland’s producers tens of millions of head of livestock; tens of millions of tons of flour, grains, meat, poultry & dairy products; enough to sustain 18 million persons
The Food Removal
From Cork harbor on one day in 1847 2 the AJAX steamed for England with 1,514 firkins of butter, 102 casks of pork, 44 hogsheads of whiskey, 844 sacks of oats, 247 sacks of wheat, 106 bales of bacon, 13 casks of hams, 145 casks of porter, 12 sacks of fodder, 28 bales of feathers, 8 sacks of lard, 296 boxes of eggs, 30 head of cattle, 90 pigs, 220 lambs, 34 calves and 69 miscellaneous packages.
On November 14, 1848 3, sailed, from Cork harbor alone: 147 bales of bacon, 120 casks and 135 barrels of pork, 5 casks of hams, 149 casks of miscellaneous provisions (foodstuff); 1,996 sacks & 950 barrels of oats; 300 bags of flour; 300 head of cattle; 239 sheep; 9,398 firkins of butter; 542 boxes of eggs.
On July 28, 1848 4; a typical day’s food shipments from only the following four ports: from Limerick: the ANN, JOHN GUISE and MESSENGER for London; the PELTON CLINTON for Liverpool; and the CITY OF LIMERICK, BRITISH QUEEN, and CAMBRIAN MAID for Glasgow. This one-day removal of Limerick’s food was of 863 firkins of butter; 212 firkins, 1,198 casks and 200 kegs of lard, 87 casks of ham; 267 bales of bacon; 52 barrels of pork; 45 tons and 628 barrels of flour; 4,975 barrels of oats and 1,000 barrels of barley.
From Kilrush: the ELLEN for Bristol; the CHARLES G. FRYER and MARY ELLIOTT for London. This one-day removal was of 550 tons of County Clare’s oats and 15 tons of its barley.
From Tralee: the JOHN ST. BARBE, CLAUDIA and QUEEN for London; the SPOKESMAN for Liverpool. This one-day removal was of 711 tons of Kerry’s oats and 118 tons of its barley.
From Galway: the MARY, VICTORIA, and DILIGENCE for London; the SWAN and UNION for Limerick (probably for transshipment to England). This one-day removal was of 60 sacks of Co. Galway’s flour; 30 sacks and 292 tons of its oatmeal; 294 tons of its oats; and 140 tons of its miscellaneous provisions (foodstuffs). British soldiers forcibly removed it from its starving Limerick, Clare, Kerry and Galway producers.
In Belmullet, Co. Mayo the mission of 151 soldiers 5 of the 49th Regiment, in addition to escorting livestock and crops to the port for export, was to guard a few tons of stored meal from the hands of the starving; its population falling from 237 to 105 between 1841 and 1851. Belmullet also lost its source of fish in January, 1849, when Britain’s Coast Guard arrested its fleet of enterprising fishermen ten miles at sea in the act of off-loading flour from a passing ship. They were sentenced to prison and their currachs were confiscated.
The Waterford Harbor British army commissariat officer wrote to British Treasury Chief Charles Trevelyan on April 24, 1846; “The barges leave Clonmel once a week for this place, with the export supplies under convoy which, last Tuesday, consisted of 2 guns, 50 cavalry, and 80 infantry escorting them on the banks of the Suir as far as Carrick.” While its people starved, the Clonmel district exported annually, along with its other farm produce, approximately 60,000 pigs in the form of cured pork.
BaronVonP7Free MemberDominic steps out of the wings and takes the spotlight as a major player… Applause! Applause!
Then finds that the spot light is actually searchlight.
Will he make it to the end of the play or will “deus ex machina” strike him down? My money is on the old Gods doin’ for him.
torsoinalakeFree MemberWill he make it to the end of the play or will “deus ex machina” strike him down? My money is on the old Gods doin’ for him.
He is apparently only there to get Brexit over the line. Postponed an operation to take up the role until the week after Brexit, and will decide if he wants to come back afterwards.
BoardinBobFull MemberThe irony of an unelected bureaucrat like Cummings being the brexiteers main hope
eat_the_puddingFree Membertj,
Still no explanation of why;
a) nicola is covering up the “truth”?
Or
b) the SNP report on “scotlands future” failed to mention any of the 12 dimensional economic factoids you’ve brought up.I wrote more, but I’ve deleted it and I’m disengaging on this.
Its off topic and the irony of you spreading and defending economic FUD in a thread about brexit is making my head hurt.PS I see the reverend from bath is starting up a full on “populist and anti-political” independence party to challenge the SNP and get in touch with the “vast majority” of scots.
He sounds like just the sort of stable genius we’ve all been looking for.tjagainFull MemberI am not spreading false information! You simply have made your mind up and refuse to listen to what I wrote. Fingers in ears! I have clearly explained the issues with GERs figures and given links to independent analysis
I quite agree about disengaging however – politics threads on here are simply people shouting with fingers in their ears
tjagainFull MemberActually I will just state the case again very simply
Gers figures are a very rough approximation – reliability is poor. Good for comparison, poor for actual numbers
Gers incudes costs that would not come to scotland in the event of independence such as a billion a year for nuclear weapons, such as a share of london transport subsidy, such as the cost of westminster and whitehall etc etc
GERs also underestimates income – head office effect and a few others
An independent Scotland would have a deficit – but smaller than GERS suggests
GERs methodology is a political construct designed to do this
I gave links to non scots economics acedemic discussing this – did you read it?
I also explained why The scottish Government adopted this measure
OK – lets move on!ferralsFree MemberIn discussions with a supplier this morning – ‘we are quoting in Euros; the pound is too weak to quote in GBP’
So we may be leaving the EU, but we are going to start having to use the Euro??!!
scotroutesFull MemberI see the reverend from bath is starting up a full on “populist and anti-political” independence party to challenge the SNP
Wrong!
BoardinBobFull Memberscotroutes
Member
I see the reverend from bath is starting up a full on “populist and anti-political” independence party to challenge the SNPWrong
Indeed. An absolute shocking report from the BBC on this. He is not challenging the SNP at all. He’s going after list seats to take them from the tories and Labour to hopefully create an overwhelming indy majority in holyrood. He’s clearly explained this on his site. The BBC really are scum
eat_the_puddingFree Memberjeebus tj,
Still no explanation of why nicola is silent?In other news, even the nat onal says that the cost of trident to scotland is 180million/year (not “a billion a year”).
If you cant be arsed googling that when the information is freely available then where are your other “figures” coming from.London transport costs (crossrail etc) are not included in the figures for scotland and we pay nothing towards anything that does not have a positive effect on the scottish economy. Also freely available information.
I’ve read your “independent analysis”. It brings this to mind;
‘The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.’ – Alberto BrandoliniIts been years since 2014 and still people believe there is “export duty” on whiskey, oil in the Clyde, and that a few articles in a newspaper can refute government statistics produced by the scottish government.
You can keep sewing FUD (and claim you aren’t) but the basic question you have to answer (which you haven’t even touched on for some reason) is the simple one at the top of this comment.
tjagainFull MemberI did explain why the scots government uses the GERs figures. Twice. Now 3 times
1) – they understand what that actually represent which is not what you think
2) it was used as a weapon to attack the SNP – so the best way to stop that – adopt it.You have your beliefs. I do not know how much reading around the toipic you have done but I know how much I have done. Can yo actually refute that link? Or merely call it out because it does not fit your position.
I can find plenty of other acedemic analysis that shows the flaws in GERS. I Understand what they are and what they actually show.
ADFull MemberThis is fun – Farage criticising Royal family – well mainly the one who had the audacity to marry someone with a different skin tone… Nothing to see at all.
Hope that is raising the blood pressure of a few quitlings. Anti-royal comments from St Farage – how confusing.
tjagainFull MemberEat the pudding – do you not realise that the figures come from england a lot of them?
Have a read of the methodology
https://www2.gov.scot/Topics/Statistics/Browse/Economy/GERS/Methodology/detrev2018
scotroutesFull MemberHope that is raising the blood pressure of a few quitlings. Anti-royal comments from St Farage – how confusing.
You think they don’t actually agree with him?
kelvinFull MemberShows his racism as well
Bannon planning in full effect. Each step is towards open embracement of racists to gain and keep power. This is not a misstep, it’s deliberate. Slowly, slowly, step by step, wink by wink… ‘till it can become open.
doris5000Full MemberThis is fun – Farage criticising Royal family – well mainly the one who had the audacity to marry someone with a different skin tone… Nothing to see at all.
Hope that is raising the blood pressure of a few quitlings. Anti-royal comments from St Farage – how confusing.
as mentioned on twitter – Farage only liked him when he used to wear Nazi uniforms….
kelvinFull MemberI know that this is very much the intention, but this stunt by the Government is very Brexkip, and will have the people in the civil service that have to get things done and deal with other countries pulling out what’s left of their hair…
ferralsFree MemberThis is, I hesitate to use the word clever, cunning perhaps? BJ says the EU wont budge till after parlimentary battle – i.e. if you have no confidence in me, thats what the EU want.. so you should give me the benefit of the doubt (or that’s my reading of it anyway)
binnersFull MemberThe U.K. is presently like the gobby nobhead in the school classroom, who’s disruptive behaviour is stopping everyone else for getting anything done, and everyone just wants to be expelled.
I bet the rest of the E.U. can’t wait to see the back of us
martinhutchFull MemberAnyone else think that the obvious policy is to try to ensure that no further extension is offered, regardless of circumstances?
tjagainFull MemberI think thats the aim – however if the government falls all bets are off
eat_the_puddingFree Membertj,
I’m trying to move on from this, but yes I have read the methodology*.
ALL economic statistics are estimates.
The fact that much of the information comes from Westminster is irrelevant.There was an FOI to the SG stats department a few years ago (trying to put some of the FUD to bed) asking if they had ever been refused any information from westmonster that they asked for. They said no.
Nicola’s stats dept has already revised the GERS stats to improve them and remove possible inaccuracies.
If they could improve them [in a statistically valid way] to make scotlands economy look stronger I’m sure their boss would give them her full backing.They haven’t, so either let them (and nicola) know about all the issues you’ve found, or please let it lie.
The reason this matters at all on an EU thread, is that lying liars and the lies they tell is what brought us brexit in the first place.
*including the bit that states
In general, GERS apportions a share of UK revenues from corporation taxes based on the
economic activity undertaken in Scotland and not the location of companies’ headquarters.
Public corporations’ and North Sea corporation tax revenues are excluded from the analysis
and are apportioned to Scotland separately.Which directly contradicts the assertion you made upthread about scottish activities being apportioned to companies with HQs in england.
So if you read it again you should pay more attention.
marinerFree MemberNice little anecdote here.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/13/brexit-government-orwellian-ministry-of-truthdangerousbeansFree MemberFrom that article above quoting the Mayor of Bristol “All I’ve been given is a grand total of £210,000 by Westminster for our Brexit preparations. How far do they think that will go when they say it should cover policing food riots, and compensating problems Brexit causes for business, transport or anything else?”
Policing food riots? So this is expected as an acceptable part of Brexit?
DelFull Member1. Amid all the argument, the Brexit Select Committee took evidence recently from representatives of the UK’s most important industries and services. We asked them what No Deal would mean to them, listened to what they had to say and concluded the following in our report:
— Hilary Benn (@hilarybennmp) August 12, 2019
EektjagainFull MemberNo thats not what I said eat the puddi9ng. The head office effect I mentioned is different – its the taxes paid by head office staff are all credited to where the head office is.
Now please – read up on it and understand why the measure is so vague – and also read up and try to understand why it does not show the position of Scotland after independence.
Its clear that you have not read up on it, don’t understand it and simply want to use it as a stick to beat me. I have read widely around it, linked to discussion from an acedemic economist with no stake in this that describes how poor a measure it is, explained why it both under=estimates scottish taxes and over estimates scottish expenditure and finally it is not a measure of economic activity – only taxation!
And while you are at it – stop being so patronizing – Its Sturgeon not Nichola. Its patronising and demeaning to use the first name when you wouldn’t for other politicians.
Its you that won’t let it lie – accusing me of saying things I haven’t. Refuting good arguement from independent sources without any evidence and generally just making stuff up to suit your position.
eat_the_puddingFree MemberTJ, If you think her name needs respect, then accept her opinions on economics.
“Making stuff up” haha
From the man who used the term “head office effect” without qualification and then when shown that GERS includes economic activity in the country where it happens regardless of where the HQ is, says “I was talking about taxes on head office staff”.
Well;
a) if they work in the head office in slough maybe thats where their taxes should be recorded? and
b) they must be getting paid a hell of a lot, if their taxes equal a substantial portion of the cost of the NHS in Scotland (The S.I unit for “One Scottish Deficit”).Unlike you I’m not accusing anyone of bad faith, just an inability do separate opinion from well compiled statistics.
If you want to be able to claim:
and Scotland who support the UK economy – take london and scotland out of the picture then england is barely viable
Without anyone calling you out on it (when you later admit that scotland has a deficit, just not one you like the size of), maybe you should go somewhere where nationalists are allowed to run free.
GERS is not perfect but its the best indicator of the starting position after independence, (and accepted as such by the .. oh you know who already 🙂
Over the years we have repeated this conversation and you have tried to minimise the deficit, and refused to say what substantial bits you would chop off the scottish economy to afford independence (apart from nuclear weapons which at £180million/year means you’ve dealt with just over 1.2% of the deficit, woo!) and the HQ ‘tax’ effect, lets make that a generous 1% for some very well paid people in slough, and some handwaving about westminster.
And remember, a whole new country can be set up for “less than 0.2 billion” by the people who’ve spent five times that setting up part of a benefits agency.
I can understand why you want to minimise the deficit, and sew FUD around the “easy” cuts that could be made but fail to put realistic numbers on. But at least be honest with yourself.
To make a slightly roundabout point, when you say you’re “well read” on the subject, I know how you would probably react to someone saying they were “well read” on chiropractors and homeopathy from chiropractic and homeopathy websites.
Well thats how you look from here.
(PS, re: nicola’s name, I think we’ve had this conversation before when you run out of factual points to make, and decide to get personal by accusing me of getting personal (classic tj!).
I also call boris boris, theresa theresa and jeremy magic grandad. You can read anything you like into that and I’m sure you will, again).deadlydarcyFree MemberI think that’s enough now chaps. Can you take your penis bashing to another thread please?
eat_the_puddingFree MemberI’ll bash what I like thanks 😉
Anyway that was my last hurrah now that we’ve reached the “patronizing poor nicola” stage, it’s deja vu all over again. Ta Ta.tjagainFull MemberGood – then you will stop talking utter pish 🙂
Its you who got personal first!
Sorry DD.
And remember, a whole new country can be set up for “less than 0.2 billion” by the people who’ve spent five times that setting up part of a benefits agency.
Another totally made up thing – not something I said or would say
tjagainFull MemberOne more – on Scotland supporting England – Hammond the UK chancellor said that!
I refuse to say what parts I would chop off for 2 reasons – I wouldn’t! I’d raise taxes and as we all know the deficit is much smaller than you claim. too poor, too wee too feart .
Just remember – independence is not my preferred option. I do not vote SNP. I just like truth and understanding – please read up on GERs and learn something about what it is and what its limitations are. You might be suprised.
OK – I am done with this
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