We have read what the joint union statement says, and we know that most of the Labour movement want a Labour government to hold a referendum with a Remain option… what we are asking you for, TJ, ex-troll, is a link or quote where Corbyn says that.

this is so painful. Can you not read english?

Even the guardian which hates Corbyn and labour now accept that labour policy is any deal negotiated by any PM goes to a second referndum with leave and remain options

Multiple quotes saying exactly this

Great – link and quote Corbyn here. Put it to bed.

Scotroutes – I have linked numerous times to numerous statements saying showing that labour policy is clearly a referendum on any deal with leave and remain options even if negotiated by labour!

Its clear, its in black and white

Arrgghhh – why did I come back to this! I( should have learnt the lesson you tried to teach me scotroutes 😉 make your statement and leave

Front page on the Guardian now, Labour apparently back remain in a referendum.

The kicker is that they still support a labour Brexit first though.

So no real change.

If Grandad plans to campaign for remain as whole-heartedly as he did last time, essentially he’s just voted himself another couple of months kicking back on the allotment

Scotroutes – I have linked numerous times to numerous statements saying showing that labour policy is clearly a referendum on any deal with leave and remain options even if negotiated by labour!

Its clear, its in black and white

Humour us. Link and quote Corbyn.

Yup Binners. It’s not a real change in stance, it’s political weaselling.

Even the guardian which hates Corbyn and labour now accept that labour policy is any deal negotiated by any PM goes to a second referndum with leave and remain options

No, there is no commitment in today’s statement for a remain option in a referendum on a labour deal, only that either deal would be put to a referendum, and labour would back remain on a tory deal (and even then with the caveats of a deal that does not protect the economy and jobs).

Whoever becomes the new Prime Minister should have the confidence to put their deal, or No Deal, back to the people in a public vote.

In those circumstances, I want to make it clear that Labour would campaign for Remain against either No Deal or a Tory deal that does not protect the economy and jobs.

It’s like Groundhog Day. They must seriously think we’ve all just fallen out of a ****ing tree!

Well the Lib Dem’s and the Greens will be happy enough. Still the home for the anti-Brexit vote as the Labour Party takes aim at its foot once again, ready to give it both barrels

It’s definitely a change in stance but with extra political weaselling (a.k.a politics) added.

Corbyn has to lead a split party and represent a split voter base, he does’t have the luxury of just backing whatever he wants like you lot do. Because he’s actually in a position of power.

No, there is no commitment in today’s statement for a remain option in a referendum on a labour deal, only that either deal would be put to a referendum, and labour would back remain on a tory deal (and even then with the caveats of a deal that does not protect the economy and jobs

What we need to do is vote Tory in enough numbers to give them an even smaller majority, but enough to cause labour to oppose a Tory Brexit with some chance of success. 🙂 As opposed to whole heartedly voting Labour.

Corbyn truly is a prat.

Why on Earth is Corbyn so keen on delivering a labour Brexit, it’s a poisoned chalice!? If Labour tried to strike a deal it would end them.

Why on Earth is Corbyn so keen on delivering a labour Brexit

Why d’you think?!

Can you not read english?

Can you? I pointed this out yesterday and you’ve ignored it.

Even the guardian which hates Corbyn and labour now accept that labour policy is any deal negotiated by any PM goes to a second referndum with leave and remain options

…

You’ve linked to a statement that he supports a referendum with “real options for both Leave and Remain voters”.

These two statements look superficially similar, but they are not the same thing. Not by a long way. The Red Unicorns “jobs first” brexit could easily be presented to satisfy the latter statement but not the former.

well Labour had their chance…….

they blew it

again

As I read it the Labour party has produced a policy to campaign for a second referendum with a remain option but only if it’s not in power. One can only assume the lack of a policy for being in power is the knowledge that that will never happen.

No clarity by Mr Corbyn on what Labour's position would be in the event of a general election

— norman smith (@BBCNormanS) July 9, 2019

Repeatly calling for a General Election before Brexit, to move this country on from its stagnant holding pattern, is still a good approach… but you need a clear policy on Brexit when calling for that General Election… without it you just look opportunist and not ready to govern.

Oh God! I can see whats coming now. Once the Tory’s have installed the self-serving mop, Corbyn is going to pop up and demand a referendum every five minutes, like he did with demanding a general election a while back.

And he knows full well that he’s about as likely to get it. Not a cat in hells chance.

Unfortunately this will comprise, in its entirety, what Jezza considers his duties as leader of HM Opposition

I hope he does take that approach. Cross Party support for a referendum on the current WA vs Remain, and an extension from the EU to hold it, is the most realistic path to chase… if we don’t have an election. This new policy statement is all about forming a constructive position to take in opposition, and as such should be welcomed as just that, but only that.

As I read it the Labour party has produced a policy to campaign for a second referendum with a remain option but only if it’s not in power.

As I said earlier, you can’t have a confirmatory referendum on a deal if there’s no deal. If a new labour govt did not at least attempt to negotiate a new deal they would be rightly criticised for not taking their responsibilities as a government properly. If they succeed in agreeing a new deal, they obviously can’t campaign agaist it. If they fail (which is very likely), then the only options that remain are the existing deal or no deal, both of which they have said they will oppose in favour of remain.

Odd that you all seem very intent feeling defeated when you’ve won the argument. Corbyn could dance through whitehall in EU underpants and you’d still complain about it. Nothing in this whole debate makes any rational sense any more 🙂

So Labour’s preferred option (you have to assume they want to be in power right?) is for Brexit under a Corbyn deal, if they don’t get into power they’ll support Remain. So the preferred Labour option is basically part fantasy and part another massive time wasting scenario while we’re left in limbo. Yay, please take my vote Labour as that’s so attractive…

Odd that you all seem very intent feeling defeated when you’ve won the argument.

I think it’s more that they can’t possibly be seen to climb down from their virulently anti-Corbyn agendas.

Wel I’ve been in the anti-Corbyn camp (don’t think I was virulent though) but this seems to be a big move in the right direction to me.

I hope that it continues, and also that it’s not too late – I’m still clinging to this hope that Brexit can be averted, and this makes that just a little more likely for me…

So in short, I think I have this right.

Labour are now a remain party while in opposition. However, should they win a GE & we haven’t yet left the EU, they aren’t saying which way they would go?

Not quite.

While in opposition they’re now sort of remainy, in a vague ineffectual manner that they’ll keep demanding a referendum, obviously without any chance of actually getting one.

But should they get in power they will be honouring the result of the referendum and fulfilling the will of the people. The red unicorns will gallop free across the pastures of the EU

Clear?

Its all totally logical and rational and makes perfect sense

Why on Earth is Corbyn so keen on delivering a labour Brexit

Because Corbyn is anti-EU and has been for decades. It’s a form of Globalisation and at odds with Socialism.

Labour are now a remain party while in opposition. However, should they win a GE & we haven’t yet left the EU, they aren’t saying which way they would go?

As much as I don’t mind a bit of a Corbyn bashing, this stance, for me at least is the correct one for the long-term sanity of the UK.

It correctly acknowledges that it’s not a simple case of in/out with the EU.

They believe correctly that the current deal, which let’s be honest is dead is bad for the UK and worse than remaining. They assume (correctly) that any deal that Boris or Hunt makes in an effort to bring their Party into line will be worse. They also know how bad a ‘no deal’ will be.

So, when the New PM tries to pass their deal they will fight it via Ref2 which is the ONLY way to go, to unilaterally revoke would be terrible, whatever the latest polls. In a choice between Tory deal and remain, they think remain is better.

However, if a GE is called, which is likely, they think they can cut a deal that’s better than remaining on balance (a real heart v head fight between economics and ‘freedom’) – I don’t think they can and wouldn’t vote for it unless they can some how convince the EU to let us stay for less money.

The most important thing for me is that they promise to offer a 2nd ref on that deal too, with remain as an option.

That’s all I want, a second fact based vote, not respecting the stupid remain v unicorn we had 3 years ago.

If, with all the facts at our disposal we still vote to leave, even though I know Leave will lie and cheat again, then I will personally vow to shut the **** up about it.

That said, I still won’t vote for them as long as they’re lead by a Socialist. I just don’t believe in it.

.

(said, and much better, above)

That said, I still won’t vote for them as long as they’re lead by a Socialist. I just don’t believe in it.

It does exist – the NHS

P-Jay. I think your summary is all that any of us want. The chance to vote remain on ANY deal, whether it is a Labour deal, a Tory deal or No deal. The wording of the statement today offer remain as an option ONLY against a Tory deal or No deal. In the event of a Labour GE win and a negotiation of a Labour deal, the offer of a referendum is there but will only include No deal or the Labour deal as ballot options. This is how it is written. This is why people are rightly still not happy with the wording/stance. I have nothing against Labour attempting to get a better deal if they gain power, but think it stinks that they won’t commit to giving the public a Remain option against any deal they put forward, while wanting that option against a Tory deal.

In the event of a Labour GE win and a negotiation of a Labour deal, the offer of a referendum is there but will only include No deal or the Labour deal as ballot options. This is how it is written.

That isn’t what is meant. Check the briefing being sent to Labour MPs:

NEW: Here is the Q&A Labour has just sent its MPs to explain the party's new Brexit position.

Q: But could Labour go into an election arguing to campaign for leave in a referendum?

A: I’m not going to get into hypotheticals pic.twitter.com/2JZQSSUggv

— Henry Zeffman (@hzeffman) July 9, 2019

Specifically (emphasis mine):

What would Labour’s Brexit policy be in its GE manifesto?
… we need a credible deal to stop from crashing out with No Deal – and that deal should be put to a public vote along with the option to remain.

That quite clearly says to me “Labour deal vs remain” as the two options on any referendum if Labour are in power.

The wording of the statement today offer remain as an option ONLY against a Tory deal or No deal. In the event of a Labour GE win and a negotiation of a Labour deal, the offer of a referendum is there but will only include No deal or the Labour deal as ballot options. This is how it is written. This is why people are rightly still not happy with the wording/stance

You’re right, I’d read the joint Union statement and not the Labour one.

That’s a pain, and slightly insulting, it’s almost seen as fact now that ref2 will be won by remain so they’re not willing to offer us the same voice about their deal, only the Tory one.

I won’t change my voting intention, I have thrown my lot in with the Lib Dems.

Specifically (emphasis mine):

What would Labour’s Brexit policy be in its GE manifesto?
… we need a credible deal to stop from crashing out with No Deal – and that deal should be put to a public vote along with the option to remain.

That quite clearly says to me “Labour deal vs remain” as the two options on any referendum if Labour are in power.

Well THAT is very good news, I’d personally like to see it stated a little more officially that via a tweet of a document that was supposed sent to all Labour MPs, but as it’s only an issue in the event of a GE, displayed clearly, without ambiguity in their manifesto, and I might trust them on it.

when you can argue about what they mean its not a clear message

unless Labour come out & say that

‘Brexit will be a disaster for UK workers & the entire country we are unconditionally calling for a 2nd ref & want to remain’

they will not win back votes lost to the lib dems/greens and thats about 30% of their 2017 voters

likewise the 10% who voted Farage wont come back regardless

theyve fluffed it

& polls are now consistently showing them in 4th place
http://britainelects.com/2019/07/09/boris-wont-improve-tory-electoral-fortunes-poll-suggests/

That said, I still won’t vote for them as long as they’re lead by a Socialist. I just don’t believe in it.

It does exist – the NHS

The NHS is a publicly provided service. That isn’t socialism. All systems have publicly provided services, even countries that have had far more right wing politics than the UK has had at any time over the last 60 years.

& polls are now consistently showing them in 4th place

I am not sure that is supported by the evidence although admittedly it is if you just pay attention to the blatherings of some fruitcakes.
The YouGov one which has become gospel to Binners and his fellow cultists doesnt match ComRes or Opinium.
Its actually a weird scenario since despite in theory the companies being close in methodology the Labour votes varies wildly.

That press release is just a horrible read. Answer the questions straight and actually give us an answer.

Labour brexit policy vs Liberal Democrat brexit policy

Mr Corbyn said Labour was now the “party of choice” when it came to Brexit.

Presumably, everyone can choose what they think Labour’s policy is, because even Labour itself doesn’t know.

But he does not say what he would do if he won a general election and was placed in charge of the Brexit process.

BBC story, where decisive Jeremy tells us exactly what he’d do… or not.

The NHS is a publicly provided service. That isn’t socialism.

That’s precisely what it is. As you point out, every developed country has publicly-provided services to some degree, with the policies of various political parties appearing along a continuum. I’m not aware of any major party (including Labour) advocating full state/ collective ownership, or full privatisation of goods and services. It’s a nonsense to describe Labour in the terms you have, when all they’re actually proposing is mainstream social democratic policies that are pretty common across much of Europe.

It’s interesting that those who oppose the idea of public or collective ownership of services become keener on it when it’s of benefit to them personally.

So picking through this Labour policy is:

2nd ref and campaign on remain when in opposition

2nd ref with choice between Labour deal and remain if they win a GE. With deferred decision on what Labour will support

On the 2nd point I think that Labour would always have to offer a Labour deal v remain or it would be no deal and remain. Following that logic it would be slightly bizarre to seek a new deal and say unequivocally in advance they wouldn’t support it.

Thoughts….?

As others have pointed out, Corbyn wants Brexit as the EU conflicts with his nationalistic socialism as opposed to the alternative international socialism.

Therefore a labour deal is a smokescreen, they know that it will never come to that. Whilst the EU have stated as much.