well there you have it Len McCluskey in the driving seat & doing his very best to ignore his own union members as well as labour members voters & the wider public

& of course ensure that Labour will be out of power ……..

Have had it confirmed that no decision was taken at Shadow Cabinet on Labour's Brexit position, off the back of stalemate in talks with Unite yesterday.
One MP says: "Is it the Shadow Cabinet for Her Majesty's Opposition or the Shadow Cabinet for Unite?"

— Kevin Schofield (@PolhomeEditor) June 25, 2019

The only way to move the party on from the Corbyn/Milne/McCluskey/Murray position on Brexit is for the one of those that relies on the support of party members to be removed, by the members. It’s up to them to get organised now. No one else can help them.

Corbyn’s natural default position is to defer to the political dinosaurs he’s called fellow travellers during his useless, ineffectual, placard-waving ‘career’ in Westminster. They’re all rabidly anti-EU and fiercely pro-Brexit. As is he.

I just hope this is sinking in now with even the most naive in the common room. On the most important issue facing this country, he’s most definitely not on your side.

And I haven’t heard many people referring to his pledge to ‘restore democracy to the party’ recently. Mainly as you’d never get the words out without howls of derisive laughter. He’s only listening to his Marxist cabal. And they all want Brexit. They’ve always wanted it.

What a fraud that bloke really is. As much of a charlatan as Boris Johnson

Sorry for my naivete but are we saying that, legally, we can’t leave the EU without a deal as doing so would place a hard border in Northern Ireland (I’m assuming, but don’t know, that the EU wouldn’t countenance a non-secured, open boarder between itself & a non-EU country)?

I’m far from an expert either, but that is broadly my understanding. In order to leave the EU there has to simultaneously be a border and not be a border, and there’s an Austrian physicist on the phone.

If this is the case, is anyone challenging the no-dealers with this (I’m afraid that I’m sick to the back teeth with brexit politics & the tory party & tend to turn over when they’re on)?

Because it’s clearly project fear and we’ll fix it in a few years with magical technology which doesn’t exist yet and they need us more than we need them and we won the war don’t you know.

Page back in this thread to 2016, and you’ll see that the Ireland question “simply isn’t a problem“… that moved on to “technical solutions“… and then on to “it’s all a fabrication of the EU to stop us from leaving“… and these days it’s… “if the EU wants to treat us as if we’re leaving the Single Market & Customs Union, that’s their problem“… or “losing Nothern Ireland is a price worth paying“… we’ll be looping back through all of these again before the year is out.

Because it’s clearly project fear and we’ll fix it in a few years with magical technology which doesn’t exist yet

There’s also the recurring idea that Ireland will leave the EU and join the UK in a new anglocentric trading area.

Oh! If only we hadn’t sent that gunboat to Dublin in 1916, things would be so much easier now.

As much of a charlatan as Boris Johnson

😄 True that as they are both inbetween parties.

So what happens when the immovable object of reality meets the irresistible force of Boris’ bufoonery and incompetence?

He’s been on the news saying that we’ll be leaving on 31st Oct come hell or high water, with or without a deal. He’s confidently reckoning that he can win the leadership, saunter off to Brussels and tell Jonny Foreigner his renogotiation plans and…they’ll just go “of *course*, how silly of us, yes, crack on old chap”.

Or that he can get into Parliament and say “that’s it, no deal it is” and they’ll let it through (having already more or less promised NOT to leave without a deal apart from the minor problem that leaving without a deal is still the default situation) without another extension, a second referendum or revocation.

Somewhere along the line I’m going to enjoy watching him sink into the quicksand of his own making while also being terrified just how much of the country he’ll drag into the quagmire with him.

Crazylegs. We crash out without a deal, we default on our obligations under the GFA, ports are closed etc etc. We then go back to the EU with our tail between our legs to try to get a deal – only this time it needs unanimity to a majority so will be much harder to get and the first question is what about NI and the second is where is the 39 billion.

Actually I think the government will fall before a no deal brexit

Definition of irony.

Banknote firm De La Rue to cut 170 jobs in Gateshead https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-48761570

I am increasingly seeing no way out of this. GE is becoming more likely, but result is inconclusive no majority government again. Then caught in another stalemate loop.

As I said before, I think the only way is if Labour does go fully remain, and most of senior shadow cabinet are aligning that way – then a GE coalition of Labour, SNP, Lib Dems etc go for 2nd ref. But even then what’s on the ballot? May’s deal, no deal, tweaked deal,remain -take your pick. And no guarantee remain will win

but result is inconclusive no majority government again.

A Boris-led Tory party will sweep to power, possibly with the help of the Brexies.

There will be no LABOUR-SNP coalition.

A Brexative coalition with Farage as deputy would walk it.

A Boris-led Tory party will sweep to power, possibly with the help of the Brexies.

You may be right scotroutes Boris may do that, but everything is so polarising including Boris that I can’t see any majority.

There will be no LABOUR-SNP coalition.

Not even a marriage of convenience to kill Brexit? Brexit aside and whoever is leading Labour, it seems unlikely there will be a left of centre, of any flavour, govt unless SNP go into coalition or some sort of deal with Labour.

Somewhere along the line I’m going to enjoy watching him sink into the quicksand of his own making while also being terrified just how much of the country he’ll drag into the quagmire with him

I wish we had that to at least look forward to but sadly the EU will get the blame by the Brexiteers, backed up by the right-wing media and it will be swallowed hook, line and sinker by a gullible public.

GE is becoming more likely, but result is inconclusive no majority government again.

There is also a chance that instead of Boris + Brexit it could be Labour + Lib Dem or even Lib Dem + Green + SNP. Basically, anything could happen.

Molgrip s – I agree, that is my last glimmer of hope. Our Scottish brethren seem less hopeful

but sadly the EU will get the blame by the Brexiteers

Raab is already saying it’s their fault accoridng to the guardian this morning :-/

Also saying Boris can ignore parliment. Take back control, for the few not the many.

… and Boris keeps saying things like “we will not impose a border in Ireland” “we will not impose any tariffs”. Positioning the EU as the bad people doing bad things to us when it has to happen

I bet the SNP, LibDems and Greens have zero trust in Labour with Len’s stooge at the helm.

There will not be a labour snp coalition. There could be a supply and confidence deal bit even that is unlikely given the attitude of Scottish labour to the snp.

If a GE is called the question will be asked repeatedly of LD, SNP etc – would you support a Labour govt, supply and confidence, who offered a 2nd ref and campaignes on remain? Would they say no?

By the way supply and confidence isn’t a minor commitment. It means that parties support Govt in finance bill (ie the budget) and supplementary estimates – the supply bit and votes of no-confidence. Then votes freely, abstains etc on all other legislation. In some ways it’s easier than a coalition for the Govt

I am increasingly seeing no way out of this.

The way out is an election where the remain parties coordinate to beat the brexit nutters. And yes I’m counting labour as a remain party. McCluskey may well be trying to delay their move to pro-referendum and remain but he and Milne won’t be able to hold back the tide for much longer. What McDonnell wants, he gets, and he definitely wants to move to a remain position. Once that happens, labour and the other remain parties and their voters need to swallow their pride and work together to beat off Boris and Farage. As I’ve said, pro-remain tactical voting will be critical. Let the tories and brexit party take votes off each other, but the remain parties should be clear on who the best option is in each seat.

Of course this is assuming an election happens before we leave with no deal. I’m not sure it will because the tory remainers will bottle it. They always do. Witness Rory Stewart saying he won’t vote down a tory govt even if it means no deal.

As I said before, I think the only way is if Labour does go fully remain, and most of senior shadow cabinet are aligning that way

It doesn’t matter what the shadow cabinet, Labour MPs, Labour members or Labour voters think.

As Margaret Beckett stated this morning, which hardly came as a shock to anyone:

Corbyn aides seem to want Brexit no matter what, says Margaret Beckett

“Unfortunately, it’s looking more and more that some of the people who he wants to accept the majority view are not just expressing reservations but completely oppose, and I’m beginning to think some of them do actually want Britain to leave no matter what and they don’t give a toss.”

Seamus and Len want Brexit, so that’s what Labour policy is

And yes I’m counting labour as a remain party

The Labour Party is not a remain party

Barry Gardiner

Seamus and Len want Brexit, so that’s what Labour policy is

You vastly overestimate their power I think. There is a battle going on for sure, but they are two people and won’t be able to hold back the tide for much longer. McDonnell will get his way, and he and Abbott have much more influence over Corbyn than Seamus and Len.

Barry Gardiner

Why do you give so much credence to these people? Gardiner is the labour version of Andrew Mitchell. He’s a media lightning rod who’ll say anything to deflect or dilute whatever that day’s crisis might be.

McCluskey may well be trying to delay their move to pro-referendum and remain but he and Milne won’t be able to hold back the tide for much longer.

Its quite simply too late

by not making this obvious move Labour has eroded too much trust with remain voters

constructive ambiguity long since ceased to be constructive

McDonnell will get his way, and he and Abbott have much more influence over Corbyn than Seamus and Len.

Every single piece of evidence points to that being complete nonsense. He’s in the bunker and listening to no-one other than Seanmus and Len. And the reason he’s doing that is that they reflect his own passionate life-long hostility towards the EU

This ‘restoring party democracy’ thing is going great under Jezza, isn’t it? In the same way that Kim Jung Un is successfully restoring party democracy in North Korea

Its quite simply too late

I disagree. The next election is months away at the earliest. When the campaign starts it will focus minds on beating Boris and Farage and all but the most bitter and obsessed will forget what came before. It does however need to be resolved  before the summer recess. McDonnell has been quoted as saying he doesn’t want another summer of internal squabbles. He’s right, as soon as parliament breaks and Boris is in No. 10 they need to move to an aggressive campaign footing. There’s still time, but not a lot.

Your optimism, given what they’ve done over the last three years, that Jezza and his team won’t simply continue to monumentally balls it up is actually quite quaint Daz.

Hopelessly naive, and ignoring all evidence, obviously, but touching

Magic Grandad is on his feet at PMQ’s at the moment. What’s he asking about? Yemen, obviously.

Binners the balls up of the last 3 years is a collective one. You can’t have a rant about the perceived failures of labour in opposition without also acknowledging the huge role played in it by those within the party who’s primary aim has been that failure.

On the subject of brexit policy though, I have no faith in the lexiteers, but I do have huge faith in McDonnell. We’ll see if it is justified but he is the one to watch in the labour party, not McCluskey or Milne. In the end McDonnell will prevail for the simple fact that he’s on the right side of the argument.

Also lets not be under any illusions. Even when McDonnell gets his way, an election still has to be won, and then a referendum has to be won to stop brexit. That’s going to a be a massively difficult task for the very real reasons that the labour brexiteers point out. They may be wrong on brexit, but they could well be right on the impact a remain policy will have on their chances of winning an election.

Another PMQ’s successfully negotiated without mentioning the B word. Back to the bunker, comrade…

Oh… his shouty ranty YouTube bit was his third question. PEACE IN YEMEN!!!

by not making this obvious move Labour has eroded too much trust with remain voters

Nah. Many are desperate for a reason to go back to supporting Labour, I reckon.

Binners – what’s more important? The politics of a well off country or hundreds of thousands of innocent people being killed or starving to death by our mates using weapons we’ve sold? Priorities, mate.

But isn’t it all kind of academic as the courts have now banned all arms sales to Saudi from the UK? And due to Brexit we’ve now about as much international diplomatic influence as Botswana

So Corbyn using all his questions at PMQ’s to bang on about it was just the usual shouty virtue signalling to play to the sixth form gallery. Totally pointless, but typical.

Good job there’s nothing important going on in this country, eh?

Don’t mention the ‘B’ word. Head back in the sand…

Good job there’s nothing important going on in this country, eh?

Why repeat yesterdays “debate” where the maybot failed to answer? You did listen to that discussion yesterday didnt you?

The one where Labours Brexit position managed to come across as even more contradictory and muddled than ever?

In other news, it looks like Jeremy Hunts position is now hardening to the same as Borises in that Brexit will be taking place on October 31st ‘no matter what’. No matter in an attempt to appease the headbangers that make up the Tory membership.

It’d be nice if the opposition could pull its finger out of its arse and actually do some opposing at this point.

But no. Just more dithering and asking Len and Seamus what they think

In other news, it looks like Jeremy Hunts position is now hardening to the same as Borises

He’s saying that.. of course. No guarantees that’s what he’d actually do mind.

It’d be nice if the opposition could pull its finger out of its arse and actually do some opposing at this point.

Do what exactly? (for the nth time!)

I know your anti-labour rants are borne of frustration. We all feel it. But you seem to think this can all be solved simply by labour declaring itself a remain party. It wont. In fact if they move too quickly in that direction it will give the tories a free run at no deal as the party will split. This thinking that labour becoming a remain party will suddenly stop brexit is as magical as thinking no deal is possible.

You’ve often said that politicians need to be honest about brexit, but equally remainers need to be equally honest and acknowledge that easy virtue signalling by politicians against brexit will not stop it or solve it. The tories and Farage are now intent on a no deal brexit. There’s a chance they can be stopped, but it can’t be done without the labour party and that’s not going to happen unless labour can somehow hold itself together.

Do what exactly?

How about they do exactly what you your self have said they should do. You seem to think it’ll happen soon. You miss that those that want Brexit will keep their own policies in place, and string along the rest of the party, ’till an election is called and there is no time left to replace the leader to force a change in policy. That’s the plan. Repeated say that policy will move on “tomorrow”, and then disappoint again and again, as a whole string of tomorrows become yesterdays. The leader needs replacing (with another left wing candidate) now. The MPs & members need to instigate change, and do it now. Waiting for Corbyn/Milne/Mcluskey&Murray to move has long since been played out.

Both BJ and JH are now wandering the country promising that they can each renegotiate the deal, each deliver Brexit and more worryingly that we’ll be leaving this year no matter what.

Wondering how much of this is just campaign bluster and how much can actually be implemented… It’s got more scary certainly.

Can someone ask Boris that ‘do or die’ the NHS will get an extra £350 mill a week from October 31st? Even if we have to reduce the state pension, put up the higher rate of tax bracket or cut the military budget.