Forget stopping brexit, fighting elections, or being an ‘effective’ opposition (whatever that means). If the party splits, it’s game over.

🤦🏻‍♂️

The party has already split. A handful of MPs left. A few more might well leave if the promise of a Labour government delivering Brexit is dropped, but that is dwarfed by the loss of voters if it is not.

What happens if a general election is called before September? Key MPs are calling for the decision to made ASAP, with the full involvement of members. Why wait ’till September? We know why… a Brexitier leader hoping to keep his own policy in place. Sadly. Who can blame him for wanting to set the agenda for any government in which he would be PM… but he promised us a different way of doing things.

Conference wanted a 2nd ref last year, the leadership sidestepped them with the “all options are on the table” bullshit, it was a con, they never delivered a GE but still won’t swing behind a 2nd ref.

And the thing is, making a case for remain, would have actually allowed the possibility of a soft brexit (Norway ++ or whatever it is called). By not making that case, the narrative has been allowed to harden and now we are only arguing about no deal, hard brexit or remain, the opportunity to compromise has been wasted by the fence sitting and fantasy promises.

Not sure whether this has been posted here, sad reading.

To be honest, if anyone is holding out hope that Labour under the current leadership are EVER going to **really** push for a 2nd ref or a very soft Brexit they should really ask themselves if they’re being rational or just too stubborn or loyal to accept their chosen Party no longer represents their views.

Indeed. Plenty of us have now (with a heavy heart) given up on Labour party completely now. They’re just a hopeless case under Brexiteer Corbyn. The leadership are clearly just as pro-Brexit as the Tory’s and have absolutely no intention whatsoever of delivering a second referendum, or indeed anything at all that would prevent Brexit.

And Daz’s idea that people like me are going to bite the bullet, hold their noses and return to labour is an absolute fantasy, I’m afraid. There’s absolutely no way on earth I’m ever going to vote for a pro-Brexit party, just so I can have ‘80% of people voted for pro-Brexit party, so we must respect the will of the people’ bullshit thrown back in my face

I don’t think many of us are going to fall for that crap again. We’re not total mugs!

And I do love this idea that former labour voters delivering a Tory government is somehow their fault, rather than the fault of a useless, pro-Brexit labour leadership for making their position impossible to vote for, for glaringly obvious reasons.

And as the latest insane polling shows, the next general election will be completely different from any that have gone before it. The two party cartel is lying in tatters, so you’ve now got more reason than ever before to vote for a party that represents you (hello Lib Dems, Green Party and SNP), rather than the least worst option of the usual two suspects

Barking! Does anyone have Paul McKenna’s number? We need someone to undo this mass hypnotism.

It’s OK Uri Geller is on it.

vinnyeh

Not sure whether this has been posted here, sad reading.

Actually I think it will be the best thing for the UK to become the unUK.

And not just because I support Scottish independence. I think it would also benefit England to be able to sail its own course without worrying about the smaller countries. And independent small countries seem to thrive these days.

FFS current Labour policy is what? Election or Labour brexit or 2nd ref, right?
They’ve failed to get the first, as the no confidence vote failed, also the second, either because of the first or because negotiations failed with the government ( surprise!), so now, please, where is this 2nd ref? Because if we’re all agreeing on policy and getting behind it, the getting better get going.
It’s not going to happen. Labour have had the most shambolic and disarrayed conservatives in history and they have completely failed by every measure available.
They’ve done a cracking job of making themselves completely irrelevant.
A quick relaunch and the lib Dems will be in power, if we’re very lucky.

And Daz’s idea that people like me are going to bite the bullet, hold their noses and return to labour is an absolute fantasy, I’m afraid. There’s absolutely no way on earth I’m ever going to vote for a pro-Brexit party, just so I can have ‘80% of people voted for pro-Brexit party, so we must respect the will of the people’ bullshit thrown back in my face

Binners – Exactly the same here but from the other end of the political spectrum. Voted Tory most of my adult life, but LibDem local and Euros this time. Can’t see that changing at the next general, and if Boris is Conservative leader definitely not – I’ll never vote for him after the damage he did in the referendum. And I’m someone who is a remainer and sees a Corbyn government as a bigger threat than Brexit ( or rather its a McDonnell chancellorship and the destruction that could bring I fear. Corbyn would be more of an embarrassment than anything else.)

Gowrie. Both the labour party and the Tory’s have had the two-party ‘to me… to you’ system serve them so well for so long that they just don’t know what to do now that it’s being put to the sword.

Just look at the complacency! When faced with the threat from the right of the Brexit Party, and from the Lib Dms/Green/SNP from the liberal-leaning remainers, both main parties are like rabbits in the headlights. They’re paralysed. They haven’t got a clue what to do.

Farage nicking huge chunks of the Tory vote should be an absolute gift for the labour party. An open goal. But instead of trying to attract more liberal, disaffected remainer Tories like yourself, They’ve just sat dithering under a truly staggeringly incompetent ‘leadership’ still married to its 1970’s, knee-jerk anti-europeanism

I think its too late to change tack now. They’ve absolutely ****ed it! Their core support deserted them in their millions at the EU and local elections. And guess what, Jeremy? We’re not coming back. Not while we have much more palatable alternatives to vote for who actually have a proper policy position, and the next election is absolutely wide open. They’re just going to carry on losing more voters in droves. They had their chance and they couldn’t have more effectively blown it!

The Tory’s are screwed at a General Election anyway, due to Farage stealing their vote. Hence the present leadership contenders continuing to promise absolute fantasy politics about unicorn-based renegotiations and no deal

Christ only knows what the next parliament will look like. Certainly, like nothing this country has ever seen before. Personally, I’d love to see a Lib Dem majority, but I doubt there’s any chance of anyone getting a majority. Its going to be chaos!

The Tory’s are screwed at a General Election anyway, due to Farage stealing their vote. Hence the present leadership contenders continuing to promise absolute fantasy politics about unicorn-based renegotiations and no deal

The Tories only hope is to deliver Brexit and hope the Brexit party collapses. But even then it currently doesn’t offer a broad enough appeal to attract centre rightists like myself and less liberal Little Englander Brexiteers etc. They will have to again choose who to appeal to. They’re unlikely to tend towards the centre, I fear.

Out of interest Gowrie, do you think that there’s anybody within the Tory party who could lead them back to electoral relevance, and wrestle the party back from the ERG?

Or is it too far gone for that now?

Surely trying to out-Farage Farage is never going to work? Your own opinions have just illustrated why. ALong with the despair to business. The Tory’s ‘Party of Business’ claim was surely finished with Borises “**** business!” remark.

Slight change of current conversation – but, if you go to a Tory/Labour/Lib Dem/SNP/Green party rally would they charge you for tickets? Or do you only have to pay to see racists?

We've sold thousands of tickets for our Big Vision Rally in Birmingham on 30th June.

With limited spaces left, get tickets now whilst they last. This is going to be special… https://t.co/spjjAgSb1Y

— The Brexit Party (@brexitparty_uk) June 18, 2019

Not without precedent. They tried selling tickets to the Labour big concert thing… and then gave them away to try and swell the attendance… and then members unveiled a big STOP BREXIT type banner and upset those that claim to be on their side.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/jeremy-corbyn/news/95497/unite-gives-away-thousand-tickets

https://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/anti-brexit-protesters-try-to-disrupt-jeremy-corbyns-speech-to-labour-live-festival_uk_5b251efbe4b0f9178a9d7861

Working through options on chances of Brexit 2nd ref (or revoke A50) my analysis is:

(1)Tory leadership will never voluntarily allow a second ref. Even the liberal commentariat darling Stewart has said he would not go 2nd ref. That means (a) a Brexit deal is voted through Parly, (b) no deal by default but against will of Parly or (c) general election either forced or chosen by Tory leader.

(2) 2nd ref is voted through by Parly – too many Labour against as things stand – although Tory rebels may swing behind if alternative is a catastrophic general election.

(3) There is a GE (see 1 above) and returns a big enough coalition of Labour, lib-dem, SNP, green Plaid etc MPs to force 2nd ref (or revoke). But requires Labour to stand on remain platform

(4) There is a GE and Boris stands on a no deal platform, wins and we crash out.

…any more?

…any more?

Government is voted down by parliament in October, replacement interim PM asks EU for an extension while a general election takes place… result of election is no one has overall control… SNP, LibDem, PC and some key ex-Conservative MPs refuse to allow any minority government that doesn’t allow a referendum… another interim PM asks for another extension for a referendum… we Leave in May 2020 at the earliest (if at all). Yet another general election in 2020 to try and get a majority, or at least a working minority government. The fall out from another referendum results in an even more fractured parliament, with a weak coalition government of some form trying to avoid a third election. Maybe. It’ll probably get messier, whatever.

One thing is certain, we will look back to 2019 fondly, when the rest of the world was mostly hiding its incredulity at what has happened to us, rather than laughing in our face.

Sweet Jesus! Imagine being at a Brexit Party Rally? In Birmingham?

A room full of angry gammons, being served ‘light refreshments’ by the NEC staff who will no doubt all be from Poland and Latvia

When you think of the majority that Blair had in 97, imagine how many of those were soft tory/soft lab and where are they now?? There is a massive opportunity but no one seems to want to pose anything moderate, and the disaffection in politicians that drove the referendum vote is getting worse.

Watching Jo Swinson, who looks nailed on to take over from Uncle Vince, interviewed on Newsnight last week, it seems we’re about to get a competent party leader who isn’t mental.

And the Lib Dems are comfortably polling above Labour and the Tories at the moment, on a solid, unambiguous anti-Brexit message, so with a new, younger leader…

Sweet Jesus! Imagine being at a Brexit Party Rally? In Birmingham?

A room full of angry gammons, being served ‘light refreshments’ by the NEC staff who will no doubt all be from Poland and Latvia

“Extra cream with your coffee sir?”

Lets hope the libdems don’t shoot themselves in the foot and anoint Chuka as leader.

Binners – No I don’t. But I don’t know it well enough to know who might be there. Socially illiberal Brexiteer seem to dominate, currently.

I think the Labour party are that sinking ship, with Red Grandad locked in his cabin with his fingers in his ears going “la, la, la” and trying to block the reality that in 10 minutes he is going to be up to his ‘arris in salt water.

This argument that he is trying to hold party together is rubbish, hold it together for what? What good is a political party that has no followers and is deafening only it’s ability to say very little and to offer bugger all opposition, this Tory party and As Binners says, at a time where they were needed to step up and be a real opposition party, they have squarely failed.

When you think of the majority that Blair had in 97, imagine how many of those were soft tory/soft lab and where are they now?? There is a massive opportunity but no one seems to want to pose anything moderate, and the disaffection in politicians that drove the referendum vote is getting worse.

As you might have seen in the Polls, the Lib Dems are killing it at the moment.

’97 was the first GE I was old enough to vote in, I along with most of my mates Voted for Labour, and have done so pretty much every GE since.

We’d heard Neil Kinnock try and fail for a decade to persuade people to embrace Socialism, a lot like the times we find ourselves in now, a lot of people absolutely hated the Tory Government, I mean forget the recent slightly rose tinted revival of Thatchers Premiership, in the 90s she was LOATHED by large swathes of the population, but despite this, there were never enough voters willing to embrace true socialism, when the Demonised Thatcher gave way to the far nicer Major his chance had passed.

New Labour really was a breath of fresh Air, it was a version of the ‘Third Way’ which was music to our ears. It basically said that you could work hard and get ahead without having your Shop Steward cutting your down for getting ideas above your station, messing with seniority or worst of all, becoming ‘Management’ (they used the word like Right Wingers use ‘Liberal’ these days) but at the same time you didn’t have to screw over your fellow man at the same time. You worked hard you were rewarded but you paid your taxes and those taxes paid for Hospitals, School, Welfare, University Places. What a great idea eh? Prosperity for those who could, and support for those who couldn’t.

The people who hated it, are the same people who hate it now – the ones who want to maintain the old class system. Either because they’re at the bottom and think same is the same as equal and equal is the same as fair. Or they’re at the top and it really seems a jolly good idea to stay there.

Labour like the think they did well badly than expected at the last election because they got a lot of young voters, but the data doesn’t support that. The data actually shows that at the last moment, people in my demographic couldn’t bring themselves to stay away and with the LDs still in the shit for the coalition years voted Labour. We won’t next time.

What a great idea eh? Prosperity for those who could, and support for those who couldn’t.

Which of the current crop of labour social and economic policies do not fit this description?

Delivering Brexit.

Which of the current crop of labour social and economic policies do not fit this description?

Erm… how about its support for the ultimate uber-neoliberal, right-wing project …. Brexit

Which we all know will lead to economic catastrophe, with the disaster capitalists making a killing, while the poor and working classes once again bear the brunt of it. All while the rich get richer. Ultimately the privatisation of the NHS, and the decimation of everything we now take for granted once the tax is slashed for corporations and the wealthy as we turn into a tax haven

But, if we just forget about that trifling little matter, everything is brilliant!

I may be wrong. Brexit may usher in a socialist utopia. Looking at the people who champion it, that’s almost certainly what they’ve got in mind

Cheers!

@dazh, the policy of supporting Brexit knowing full well, it is the man in the street that will end bearing the cost of this mess? Blindly wanting Leave, but then not even having the guts to state it out loud properly, just sitting high on the fence saying very little?

Corbyn has made clear he wants Brexit, but has anyone actually read anything clear from him as to why he wants it and why he thinks it is the best thing for us, i haven’t really?

Has anybody heard what his policies will be once Brexit has happened so that we are a more prosperous nation with better jobs once it has happened?

You can quote all the policies in the world, but then when you ignore the large elephant in the room that has a huge bearing on all other aspects, then they aren’t worth the paper they are written on.

There is a clear reason Labour supporters are leaving them in droves and every turn they seem to be failing to address the issue.

Watching Jo Swinson, who looks nailed on to take over from Uncle Vince, interviewed on Newsnight last week, it seems we’re about to get a competent party leader who isn’t mental.

Have you checked her voting record?

I have, yes. Exactly what you’d expect from a Lib Dem, really. All very… well… liberal

I’m not completely disagreeing with the thrust of your point Binners but its worth remembering that: Rich were getting richer before the referendum, working poor were bearing the brunt of it before the referendum, disaster capitalists were getting richer before the referendum,NHS being privatised before the….etc

If we revoke A50 tomorrow all the above would be true still.

Absolutely.

But everything is relative. This will all look like a socialist utopia if the Brexiteers get to push through everything they’ve actually got planned (but are shy of actually vocalising)

Brexit would mean taking this particularly American form of capitalism, which has delivered so much inequality and turbo-charging it then giving it a few lines of coke.

Most of the restraints on the economic model are placed on it by the EU. That’s why the headbangers hate the EU so much. They want to tear up any restrictions on their ability to absolutely shaft us all. Brexit won’t solve these problems. It will make them ten times worse.

Call me old fashioned, but I don’t think the labour party should be fully complicit in enabling that, based on the terminally misguided and outdated, knee-jerk, 1970’s anti-Europeanism of a group of political dinosaurs

first and probably last post in this thread because the whole thing is too depressing, but I certainly count myself amoung the people who believed Corbyn had the correct strategy up until January or so, and that after all the VONC and so on, would switch to strongly supporting 2nd ref or at least some palatable version of brexit – very closely aligned or whatever.

However it’s been clear since then that the labour leadership are not keen to lead at all and are happy to be as ambiguous as possible in order to mop up as many votes as possible (and I don’t believe that is going to work).

I am a rabid remainer but I would have been satisfied with Labour setting out a clear policy based on leaving but with a solid plan to work very closely with the rest of europe, combined (importantly for me) with a fairly radical social democratic manifesto. Renationalising key infrastructure, very strong action to deal with the problem of housing costs and draconian action to impose fair taxation on companies who are not paying anywhere near a fair share. And, reform of the voting system ideally.

But it’s clear now that Labour are too divided and cannot be trusted to lead. If they can’t be trusted to lead on brexit (with a clear, unequivocal, achievable policy on exactly what they will do) I don’t trust them to deliver anything else. There is far too much “clever language” and equivocation and wiggle room.

So like many others I will be voting green or lib dem. It is already now too late for labour to win back my vote at the next election, I am fed up with the whole thing and I totally understand why people who see things a bit differently from me will vote Brexit party.

Rob

robjones for PM

Just had to spend £172 getting our dog tested for rabies so we can take him to Europe later this year.
I’m not sure whether I’m supposed to send the bill to Boris or Nigel?

Send it to one of these five working class salt of the earth types…

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-leave-eu-campaign-arron-banks-jeremy-hosking-five-uk-richest-businessmen-peter-hargreaves-a7699046.html

I am a rabid remainer but I would have been satisfied with Labour setting out a clear policy based on leaving but with a solid plan to work very closely with the rest of europe, combined (importantly for me) with a fairly radical social democratic manifesto.

Totally agree. What is it about the brexit policy that you are not clear about?

You’re just trolling now.

Not at all. I’m genuinely interested in why someone who appears to have thought carefully about this is unable to understand a policy which is a simple flowchart with a couple of basic questions in it. He wants a clear policy, and that’s what they have.

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