Kelvin, apart from the fact that you’ve resorted to posting random tweets by well meaning hippies to support your view, this tweet sums up exactly why labour can’t do what you want.

Stable nation? Stable for who?

Stable for the people it seeks to represent.

Stable for the people it seeks to represent.

I ask again, for who? This is the crux of the issue, because for right or wrong, the people who voted to leave don’t believe it’s them.

For those that are inclined to support Labour, not just for those that used to vote Tory/UKIP and now vote for the Brexit Party. For those working in manufacturing in the North East of England and South Wales, not just for the well off retired folk in the shires. For those that work in the cities, not just for those working in The City. For those that work in our countryside, not just for those who own sugar cane plantations in Belize. For those who’s families live across borders, not just for those who blame foreigners for the country’s problems. For those that work in the NHS, not just for those who own insurance companies.

Ian Lavery, one of the Brexity cabal around Corbyn, has just restated that the Labour party policy will not change and it will be ‘delivering on the result of the referendum’.

Head in the sand, and full steam ahead with Red Unicorn Brexit, comrade. They really are determined that they don’t want to be anywhere near power, and are happy to sit back as spectators while the Tory’s get on with it

Jeremy could have said something, of course, but somebody would have to have gone up to the allotment to tell him what Tom said, then remind him what Brexit actually is

For those that are inclined to support Labour

So can you think of any reasons why existing or potential labour voters might not view this country as ‘stable’?

Can you inform me as to how Brexit is making it more stable for any of those people?

There really is no reason not to vote labour.

Did you forget the narrative which emerged immediately after the last election? “80% of voters voted for pro-brexit parties.”

There’s plenty of reasons not to vote labour; if you live in a Lib Dem or SNP dominant constituency, for example.

Then we have two “new” main parties that people can vote for.

Conservatives and Labour will be consigned to history.

I never thought I’d say this, but I kind of agree with Chewkw a little here. UK politics has a huge problem with inertia, and people either blindly vote for whomever they’ve always voted for or have long memories (tuition fees / Iraq war / etc etc) which have little relevance to where we are today. The Lib Dems would be a lot more popular if they swallowed a couple of smaller parties and went “we’re not the Liberals any more, we’re the UK Democratic Party” or some such. All of the major parties are carrying too much baggage for voters to think straight.

anyone who disagrees or dares to question the stop brexit mantra is automatically a far right gammon who doesn’t deserve to be heard. That’s it right?

Meanwhile, sixteen and a half million people have been told to “shut up and get over it” for the last three years. Democratically, obvs.

Of course not. I’m a remainer, why would I stop voting labour if they became full-on pro-remain?

Because whatever words are coming out of your keyboard the reality is that you just want to watch the world burn.

I wouldn’t be surprised to see the ‘associate citizen’ programme appear after all this is cleared up tbh. It’d be a great way for the EU to poach talent from the UK.

Latest General Election voting intentions from YouGov

Brexit Party 26%
Lib Dems 22%
Labour 19%
Tories 17%

It’d be interesting to see how the hell that would play out in the seats won by each party. Well… interesting if you were observing it in another country. To me, that’s just got chaos written all over it.

I doubt if there were an election tomorrow there would be any such thing as a safe seat

Did you forget the narrative which emerged immediately after the last election? “80% of voters voted for pro-brexit parties.”

Mostly pushed by the maybot and the hard right. I am not sure surrendering to their narrative setting is a good thing.

The Gardening Grandad is wedded to his “respect democracy” line. Until he is gone, that is Labour’s angle, regardless of what any other Labour MP might say, want, or do.

The Tories are fighting to see who’s the most Brexity in the Infants (sorry, underworld).

Meanwhile, in one month’s time Invisible Vince will be gone and the Lib Dems will have a new leader. Maybe they’ll start sounding off about being the one single mainstream party not supporting the country cutting its own nose off.

binners, that is truly scary, the idea of Farage’s Black Shirts getting a chunk of parliament is frankly very frightening indeed.

Evidence suggests not. See Peterborough. And again, listen to the MPs who represent these constituencies. Also see my earlier comment that I believe many remain labour voters will grit their teeth and vote labour because there is simply no alternative which can beat the tories and the brexit party.

What you believe flies in the face of their performance in the euro and local elections, where Labour were all but wiped out. You have one result that backs up your position. Your previous speculation about the Labour party’s leadership having more accurate data, so they know better than us plebs, only works so long as Tom Watson goes along with the rest of the leadership’s line. He doesn’t. Labour are spunking remain votes up the wall like they’ve got them to spare, while the headbangers decamp to the brexit party. Labour will be wiped out again if they carry on as they are. What’s the definition of madness again?

Mostly pushed by the maybot and the hard right. I am not sure surrendering to their narrative setting is a good thing.

It’s when Labour front benchers have used the “over 80% of voters in the general election” line that it has been brought up in this thread. Perhaps they shouldn’t have been “surrendering to their narrative”, and instead been listening to their colleagues… disastrous election results could have been avoided this year.

There’s plenty of reasons not to vote labour; if you live in a Lib Dem or SNP dominant constituency, for example.

You conveniently ignored the next paragraph where I said remainers should vote tactically. Not like you to use selective quoting and misrepresentation to make a point.

the reality is that you just want to watch the world burn.

Yes of course I do. I’m looking forward to the chaos caused by not plunging the entire country into a brexit party led culture war. I’m especially looking forward to London twitteristas howling about how unfair it all is that the oiks in the regions want to damage their chances of retiring to the Dordogne.

Hands up if you’re in London, rather than “the regions”… not me.

It’s Brexit cheerleaders who are retired to places like the Dordogne (Nigel Lawson being a prime example). Stop with this idea that those who want either a soft Brexit or to keep membership aren’t working class, and are all in London. It’s patronising bollocks @Dazh.

I’m especially looking forward to London twitteristas howling about how unfair it all is that the oiks in the regions want to damage their chances of retiring to the Dordogne.

So you think wrecking rich pensioners retirement plans is the worst that’s going to happen post Brexit?

Kelvin the London thing was a joke, and about as serious as Cougar’s watching the world burn nonsense 🙂

Although if I was to take a straw poll of all the people I know, I’m fairly sure all the working class ones voted out, and all the middle class ones with lots of money voted in. None of them to my knowledge voted tory. What does that strictly anecdotal evidence tell us?

but kelvin you don’t understand dazh is the only true voice of the working classes, it is clear to me now that I just imagined my inner city childhood in Manchester, my life of crappy manual jobs and periods of unemployment that broke me financially and mentaly, were nothing but a dream, never being able to get on the housing ladder was just an illusion, instead I am apparently destined to retire to France.

What does that strictly anecdotal evidence tell us?

It’s the most well off people I know that voted Brexit. Most of them pensioners who were well paid professionals. Everyone else I know thought about how it might effect their job, and the career chances of their children, and the type of country we are to become, and decided on balance to vote to Remain. Just anecdotes though.

You conveniently ignored the next paragraph where I said remainers should vote tactically. Not like you to use selective quoting and misrepresentation to make a point.

It’s not selective quoting. For years across this forum I’ve quoted the pertinent bit of what I’m replying to for the benefit of context / conversation flow rather than pasting wall-of-text copy. There’s little point in C&Ping a post that’s (usually) one or two posts back in its entirety, it just clutters up the thread.

But seeing as you mention it, here’s your post again in its entirety including the bits about tactical voting which I conveniently ignored:

They are offering a second vote. There really is no reason not to vote labour. Be honest, the only reason you won’t is because Corbyn is leader. I understand how many remainers are uncomfortable voting for labour when it has a soft brexit leader, but the alternative is Boris with Farage pulling his strings. If you are a remainer and in a labour marginal, voting for anyone but labour delivers the thing you don’t want. For that obvious reason I reckon many will stick with labour when it comes to the crunch.

I’ve no need to try to misrepresent you when you do such a good job of it on your own.

Its all a front with Daz. He actually runs a grouse shooting business on his acres of moorland where he entertains Russian Oligarchs, then offshores his money to the Cayman Islands

I’m especially looking forward to London twitteristas howling about how unfair it all is that the oiks in the regions want to damage their chances of retiring to the Dordogne.

This London twitteristo is howling that his wife can’t retire with him in the UK. Didn’t seem too much to ask, really?

Watching Newsnight? Looks like Watson was supposed to be supporting a move by Corbyn… that never happened…

Corbyn's inner strategy group had agreed he'd come out for a second referendum in all circumstances, including the option to remain. "The agreement was Corbyn would write a newspaper article, to appear before Watson's speech today. The article never appeared." says @nicholaswatt.

— Alex Andreou (@sturdyAlex) June 17, 2019

Also watching newsnight… Kate Hoey is madder than a box of frogs. I’m pretty sure she should be with Farage in the Brexit party. Wouldn’t surprise me in the least if that where she ends up. Bonkers!

Looks like things are coming to a head with labour, and a ‘leader’ who doesn’t represent the views of the overwhelming majority of labour MP’s, members or voters, but does represent the views of Kate Hoey

Hoey is simply diabolical.
Like a Katie Hopkins with more influence.

She was a bit excited about Raab, wasn’t she.

Dreadful numbers for @UKLabour and @Conservatives in @YouGov poll today. Over 40% of Labour's 2017 vote has gone to parties that clearly support #PeoplesVote 11% goes Brexit. So for every vote lost to Brexit Party, Lab loses about 4 votes to those pro #PeoplesVote parties pic.twitter.com/nPv6x8s5qW

— Patrick Heneghan (@PJHeneghan) June 14, 2019

. UK politics has a huge problem with inertia, and people either blindly vote for whomever they’ve always voted for or have long memories (tuition fees / Iraq war / etc etc) which have little relevance to where we are today

Oh come on, that’s a ridiculous thing to say. Long memories? It was easily within the last couple of decades. And to make it worse I voted for that at the time.

(And look at the Iranian thing now bubbling up, Corbyn being slammed by the suggestion we shouldn’t rush in. )

It has complete relevance as some of us put those things below Brexit on the geo-political scale – you know like slavishly going to war as a means of keeping the country on an ethical footing.

It’s all been said, but clearly my priorities about the way society should function are different than yours and lots on here

Basically I’d sooner have a Labour Brexit than a Tory one, and that’s the likely choice. We don’t want Labour back to where it was previously – and that’s not a long memory by any shot.

Things have been pretty shitty under the Tories whilst in the EU (Austerity etc) – we’re huge decline and don’t think keeping any of those in power means we’ve done okay.

When the credit card/debt bubble bursts again we will need something other than this debate. And carrying on neoliberal policies won’t save us either.

Just anecdotes though.

Whereas most of my working class large family voted Brexit as did most of the people where I live (full of rich people). But where I work (IT) not a single person that I am aware of supports Brexit. So every-bodies anecdotes are different, therefore worthless.

Basically I’d sooner have a Labour Brexit than a Tory one, and that’s the likely choice.

The choice is Brexit or a Labour government. If it comes to a snap General Election before we Leave, it is Corbyn who will have to make that choice. If he promises to deliver Brexit, he dooms the party to opposition for another five years. There will be no Labour Brexit. You need to ignore @Del’s post to continue thinking otherwise.

The ability of the labour leadership, Rone & dazh etc to ignore every single poll & the last 2 national elections* is really quite impressive

.

* I’ll add in the Peterborough by-election: scraping a few hundred votes against a party with no leader after a decade of austerity & the other party with no manifesto… is a hollow victory.

.

Ultimately tho I think labour have blown it, even if they switched to remain tomorrow 3 years of fence sitting has blown away trust in them

Corbyn, Seamus, Ian and Len are in their bunker, completely ignoring all evidence and polling (which is telling them what they don’t want to hear) and the majority of Labour MP’s, members and voters (hurray for ‘restoring party democracy!), as they just want to see the Brexit project completed that they’ve dedicated themselves too for decades

And while everyone is accusing Boris of hiding, that’s exactly what Corbyn is doing. He cancelled a meeting with MP’s yesterday as he knew it would be even angrier than a week ago, and the only statement he’s issued says that he will review Labours Brexit Policy when they discuss it at conference in September. When, of course, it will be too late to effect any change on a Tory Brexiteer PM determined to drive through Brexit in October. Which is, of course, exactly what he wants.

Corbyn wants Brexit, without his fingerprints on it. Sorry Jezza, but your fingerprints are all over it. As the present polling is showing. We’re not idiots, and Corbyn and his team are treating the electorate with equal contempt as the hideous candidates for the Tory leadership.

Tom Watson seems to have no problem seeing what’s actually going on

Its a sad state of affairs where we know the labour leadership have no intention of saving the country from an economic catastrophe, and instead, we’re looking desperately to more moderate Tory’s like Ken Clake and Dominic Grieve to do what the Labour party should be doing – providing an opposition

This is just absolutely batshit.

THREAD/ Today we release the results of our latest Conservative members poll. One of the key findings is the dramatic extent to which Brexit has reshaped members' political priorities and subverted traditional loyalties

— YouGov (@YouGov) June 18, 2019

So committed to Brexit are members of the Conservative and Unionist Party that they would be willing to see Scotland (63%) and Northern Ireland (59%) leave the UK in order to secure it. https://t.co/9iJKlB292v pic.twitter.com/4j7bCPg6aK

— YouGov (@YouGov) June 18, 2019

That is **** insane! That actually takes insane to a new level that I don’t think the English language is capable of describing.

And these are the **** morons that are wagging the dog.

Brexit is a con job, the Tories are are corrupt lawyer arranging for your life savings to be transferred to Nigeria, and labour are thicko relative encouraging you to sign the documents and lending you money instead of phoning the police.

**** hell. Swivel eyed loons indeed.

Don’t mind the Tory party being destroyed and significant damage to the economy and the break-up of the Union, as long as Corbyn doesn’t get in!

Barking! Does anyone have Paul McKenna’s number? We need someone to undo this mass hypnotism.

and the only statement he’s issued says that he will review Labours Brexit Policy when they discuss it at conference in September. When, of course, it will be too late to effect any change on a Tory Brexiteer PM determined to drive through Brexit in October. Which is, of course, exactly what he wants.

You’ve spent the last few months bemoaning the fact that Corbyn is a dicatator who doesn’t respect party democracy, yet now you protest that he’s not unilaterally overriding the primary democratic mechanism within the party to set policy. What would you have him do between between now and September?

Corbyn has one primary and extremely difficult job, which is to hold the labour party together until the next election. Forget stopping brexit, fighting elections, or being an ‘effective’ opposition (whatever that means). If the party splits, it’s game over. The only hope is to follow procedure, get to the conference, and allow it to do it’s work. It’s the only hope of holding the party together and setting a policy which can be respected and supported by all.

It has always been thus. I remember a similar poll taken when the whole thing with the Northern Ireland backstop became an issue. At the time IIRC about 80% of Tory voters and Bexit supporters said they didn’t actually care if Brexit meant the end of the Good Friday agreement.

But what do we expect? These people exist in a bubble. Living a nice comfortable existence in the leafy home counties, they never saw the reality of the violence in Northern Ireland, except when it occasionally intruded with a bomb on the mainland. The same way that they never had to deal with the reality of catastrophic deindustrialisation in the 80’s, other than thinking that the miners were a frightful bunch of lefties when they watched it on the news.

They have only ever benefitted from Tory policies. In fact, the further to the right the policy, the better it’s been for them. Hence their support of this ‘Brexit at all costs’ approach. They’ll be alright whatever happens. And by nature of being Tory’s, we know that they couldn’t give a flying **** about anyone else, particularly the poorest, who will be hit hardest