Are the lecturns on the Tory leadership debate jam packed cabinets full of snorting candy – for during the ads?

Boris is right for not attending the Tory leadership debate as I think he would struggle to answer cringe worthy questions. This debate is like saying “Look at me! Look at me! I am beautiful” 😆

And they’d be pretty much useless as whilst the euro parliament has the legal power it very rarely (or ever) challenges euro legislation as decided by the unelected euro commission.

So does the EU parliament not have to pass laws drafted by the commission?

The commission doesn’t work on anything in a vacuum, read up on how it works, and the stake holders that it needs to carry with it to get anything done, and you’ll understand better. It has to take the exact opposite of the “dictatorial” approach it is accused of. This is why the criticism of it being slow to create change is very valid… but the idea that is undemocratic is flawed, in my opinion.

This man wants my vote, and knows how to get it…

The core values of the EU are: Internationalism, Solidarity, Freedom. They are British, Labour values. Our future doesn’t need to be Brexit. We can change our future. But only if Labour makes the case for it – and we must. #proudlybritishproudlyeuropean pic.twitter.com/YKr5RoeLgF

— Tom Watson (@tom_watson) June 17, 2019

I think what you’ll find that what that man wants is not your vote, but to be taken outside and shot for his disloyalty to the glorious leader. How dare he speak against the will of the people?!

Tom Watson. Thank you.

I think what you’ll find that what that man wants is not your vote, but to be taken outside and shot for his disloyalty to the glorious leader. How dare he speak against the will of the people?!

Cmon, you must have a Monty Python image to post alongside that. You are slipping.

Ignoring Binners and his fun way of stating the obvious … if there is a snap General Election before we have left the EU, do you think Watson has the right approach as regards talking about the EU? Should policy, and the leadership, follow the path now being pushed for by Watson, Starmer and the overwhelming majority of Labour members? Or should Corbyn carry on regardless?

Tom Watson for lib dem leader, anyone..?

I’d rather he helped the Labour Party get into government and stop Brexit. He has the right aim and the right method. Who wants to vote for a Labour party promising to deliver Brexit, that isn’t going to allow a referendum if it wins?

If he did jump ship to the LibDems (he won’t) he’ll be joining millions of us voters thinking that way… but that is very unlikely to result in Brexit being stopped, sadly.

Dont be silly its absolutely imperative that Labour continue with the strategy that has seen them pummeled in the last 2 national elections, despite what the majority of their voters, members & the electorate may want……

Who wants to vote for a party promising to deliver Brexit, that isn’t going to allow a referendum if it wins?

Quite a lot of people. The question is where does the balance lie between the different groups.

Where do you think the balance lies? Nearly all the committed Brexit voters are voting for the Brexit Party or the Tories already. Plenty of past Labour voters who voted Leave would still vote Labour if it gave up on Brexit completely at this point. Many of us won’t vote for the party again unless it at least promises to offer the public a way out of this mess. Plenty of people who have never voted Labour could be won over as well (although that is a personal hunch based on anecdotes, the rest is based on survey data).

Where do you think the balance lies?

I really dont know. Aside from knowing the simplistic viewpoint presented by some really isnt correct.

Many of us won’t vote for the party it again unless it does.

I would want to see some evidence for the claims being made around the committed brexiteers and so on. I suspect the labour party do have access to some pretty good information on this.

The other problem is many of the more shouty people saying this sort of things are similar to Binners who arent exactly obvious labour voters unless they go all third way.

I would want to see some evidence for the claims being made around the committed brexiteers and so on.

Page back for links to surveys showing that Labour Leave voters are far less bothered about Brexit being stopped than Labour Remain voters (and Tory/Brexit Leave voters) are.

unless they go all third way

Worth listening to Labour MPs on the left of the party, who fully supported Corbyn, and have now started openly questioning his approach to Brexit (and Brexit only). Many “left” Labour voters are the same, and voting Green, or not at all, because of the Labour leadership’s Brexit, er, “strategy”.

…if there is a snap General Election before we have left the EU, do you think Watson has the right approach as regards talking about the EU? Should policy, and the leadership, follow the path now being pushed for by Watson, Starmer and the overwhelming majority of Labour members? Or should Corbyn carry on regardless?

The problem is really that they’re damned if they do and damned if they don’t there are options all with compromises:

A- If Corbyn gets behind Watson and co’ he’s seen as changing tack at this very late stage and he’s wide open to criticism for jumping on a bandwagon to try and score some lib-dem votes back (which is really the aim TBF), but at least BoJo has some clear opposition and maybe it’s harder for him to steamroll No-deal through in October?

B- JC could stay on the fence/keep quiet acting as “leader in name only” and let the rest of the leadership steer the party towards a 2nd Ref/Remain policy. of course this weakens him as leader and means he’ll need to go after the next election (which he probably won’t win anyway) but at least there is some effective opposition to the ERG/swivel-eyed contingent on the other side.

C- Labour carry on with an on the fence leader, failing to offer significant opposition to the Tories and Brexit Party and are weakened even further…

D- Could Labour change Leader? Again showing a split and still failing to capitalise on the latest round of tory in-fighting?

Of all the options A or B seem the most viable, and TBH all choices signal limited time in charge for JC, options C and D probably see the Lib-Dems hoovering up more traditionally Labour votes/support.

criticism for jumping on a bandwagon

Inevitable. But anyone who historically wanted to Leave the EU, but who now supports getting us out of the current mess, still gets my vote. Stop the clock. Keep us in. Revisit later if/when you have a proper plan to either move further to the outside of the EEA, or get out completely if you have a plan to do so that the public can and will get behind.

If you are sceptical about EU, but want to be elected on a platform that allows the public to choose to stop our current messy exit if they want, that seems coherent to be. I’m suprised that more politicans haven’t taken that stance now, considering how badly things are going. It is the position that many eurosceptics across the EU have taken… call it “Remain and reform”, or “Brexit but not at any price”, or just “in a democracy the people should have the final say”… whatever you want.

Many of us won’t vote for the party again unless it at least promises to offer the public a way out of this mess.

They are offering a second vote. There really is no reason not to vote labour. Be honest, the only reason you won’t is because Corbyn is leader. I understand how many remainers are uncomfortable voting for labour when it has a soft brexit leader, but the alternative is Boris with Farage pulling his strings. If you are a remainer and in a labour marginal, voting for anyone but labour delivers the thing you don’t want. For that obvious reason I reckon many will stick with labour when it comes to the crunch.

They are offering a second vote.

Sigh

They are still only offering a second vote on a “damaging tory brexit” not on a “glorious labour brexit”. Some of us can of course see the rank hypocrisy in this, others seem willing to be fooled.

soft brexit leader

There can be no soft brexit without freedom of movement, Corbyn has ruled this out on many occasions, he is a hard brexit leader.

If you are a remainer and in a labour marginal, voting for anyone but labour delivers the thing you don’t want

Currently voting for labour equally delivers the unwanted, but at least voting for a remain party doesn’t allow the propagandists to claim I voted to leave.

If you are sceptical about EU, but want to be elected on a platform that allows the public to choose to stop our current messy exit if they want, that seems coherent to be. I’m suprised that more politicans haven’t taken that stance now, considering how badly things are going. It is the position that many eurosceptics across the EU have taken… call it “Remain and reform”, or “Brexit but not at any price”, or just “in a democracy the people should have the final say”… whatever you want.

All very reasonable, and I would agree with it, but sadly not how most UK media and political narrative/discourse on the EU is operating, it’s so heavily polarised and t’s only extreme positions that seem to be gaining traction.

Don’t forget Cameron tried the “Remain and reform” argument and it really didn’t work out for him, it’s much too late for the sort of reasoned debates we really should have been having three or four years ago… We are Crashing out on a wave of jingoism and public frustration and the person who “Delivers” it will be both Lauded and Demonised in equal measure…

Be honest, the only reason you won’t is because Corbyn is leader.

As I’ve said, many times, Corbyn got me voting Labour for the first time in 2017… by shifting Labour to the left and promising to give Labour members control over policy… you need to get away from this idea that people that can see what a mess Brexit is, and don’t want the Labour Party to keep their promise to deliver a Hard Brexit if they form the government, are all hangers on from the Blair years.

but at least voting for a remain party doesn’t allow the propagandists to claim I voted to leave.

I’m sure when we crash out and the economy collapses your moral purity will compensate for the food shortages and runaway inflation wiping out your savings.

So… vote for economic damage and loss of international influence… or take the blame for economic damage and loss of international influence. I’d rather vote for a party offering to let us stop this damaging slide toward a Hard Brexit, if their MPs are in a position to be part of, or support, the next government.

The main reason why voting labour wont prevent Brexit is that we arent **** voting!! This thread is comedy at times!

…if there is a snap General Election before we have left the EU, do you think Watson has the right approach as regards talking about the EU?

The main reason why voting labour wont prevent Brexit is that we arent **** voting!!

Labour policy on Brexit above and beyond everything else is to force a General Election (or so the Leader keeps saying). So preparing a coherent vote winning position to take at that election is key.

The main reason why voting labour wont prevent Brexit is that we arent **** voting!! This thread is comedy at times!

Good point. And can’t see Boris holding an election as he stands to lose more than gain. All Labour can do is whip in the right direction if/when votes come up.

Labour policy is above and beyond everything else is to force a General Election

Which is exactly the correct policy because it’s been proven time again that the greatest risk of no deal occurring is the current parliamentary arithmetic. In any other time this would already have happened, and yet for some reason remainers seem to be opposed to Labour’s policy of prioritising an election over everything else.

The best approach for all this politicians is to change parties.

All remainder politicians move to Lib Dems.

All leaver politicians move to Brexit Party.

Then we have two “new” main parties that people can vote for.

Conservatives and Labour will be consigned to history.

…and yet for some reason remainers seem to be opposed to Labour’s policy of prioritising an election over everything else.

An election at which they currently propose to stand on a ticket to deliver a Hard Brexit. Labour’s deputy leader, shadow foreign secretary, shadow chancellor, Brexit spokesman and an overwhelming majority of the membership want a different policy in place for a general election. Do you?

There may be an argument that the Labour leadership team have better data that suggests that their current ambiguous approach is the best one, however I would imagine Tom Watson also has access to that data ( if it exists ), so we’re basically looking either at a question of interpretation, or personal preference. I wonder which one it is?

Tom Watson

🤣

Do you?

I want labour to stand on a ticket that maximises their chances of beating the tories. I’ll accept anything that achieves that because beating the tories and the brexit party is the only thing that counts, not just on brexit, but on countless other issues too which are as important. It would be great if they could achieve that on a remain stance, but I don’t think that’s possible.

The sensible strategy would be for a tactical approach. Remainers should vote for the libdems in tory-libdem marginals, and for labour in tory-labour marginals. The result will probably be a labour led minority govt where the libdems can exert their influence on brexit. The risk of course for the libdems is that labour would get an outright majority and their influence would disappear, but given the alternative is a tory/brexit party/DUP coalition then it’s a bit of a no-brainer.

I want labour to stand on a ticket that maximises their chances of beating the tories. I’ll accept anything that achieves that because beating the tories and the brexit party is the only thing that counts, not just on brexit, but on countless other issues too which are as important

That about sums you up. labour could do anything, as long as they are not called tories, they could enact every tory policy and go even further right and you would still vote for them. As long as they win and are called labour their policies don’t matter to you.

But we already knew that anyway, you have long argued for the logical fallacy of enacting far right policies to supposedly halt the far right.

In trying to be all things to all people Labour have alienated both

with their constructive ambiguity over a 2nd ref labour have simply eroded too much trust form the remain point of view, even if its a gamble, Id rather vote for a party with a definitive remain position

Voting for a party from whom you’re not quite sure (or don’t care) what you’ll end up with, seems to me only a few steps removed from something ridiculous like, I don’t know, voting for a party with no published manifesto at all…

you have long argued for the logical fallacy of enacting far right policies to supposedly halt the far right.

I don’t know, voting for a party with no published manifesto at all…

We’re back to the far right sympathising bollox again I see. Because of course anyone who disagrees or dares to question the stop brexit mantra is automatically a far right gammon who doesn’t deserve to be heard. That’s it right?

You’re right in that I do hate the tories. I grew up in a northumbrian mining village so I shouldn’t have to explain why. I’m not a tribal labour voter though, as you all should know seeing as I’ve said many times on here that I always vote green if it’s not a general election. The truth is the labour party are not nearly radical or transformative enough IMO. I’d have them go much further than their safe pair of hands social democratic frilling at the edges policies, and there are signs that the current labour party are keen to do that, which is why I vote for them in national elections.

Well, the Greens have moved their position from one of euroscepticism, to being fully behind a referendum (and campaigning for Remain in it), in all circumstances. Would you stop voting Labour, at national elections, if Corbyn did the same? Would anyone, in any great numbers, do so? Could such a move actually win Labour more seats than it might lose them? Are those seats that would be lost after such a move probably already likely to be lost based on the current combination of Labour Brexit policies anyway? What do you think?

Would you stop voting Labour, at national elections, if Corbyn did the same?

Of course not. I’m a remainer, why would I stop voting labour if they became full-on pro-remain?

Would anyone, in any great numbers, do so?

In working class north-eastern and midlands pro-brexit areas yes. Many would desert to the brexit party. Don’t listen to me, listen to labour MPs in these areas. They all say labour will lose huge numbers of votes to the brexit party if they go full remain.

Could such a move actually win Labour more seats than it might lose them?

No, it can’t afford to lose any labour marginals in pro-brexit areas. Which constituencies will be won on a pro-remain stance to replace those lost in pro-leave areas?

Are those seats that would be lost after such a move probably already likely to be lost based on the current combination of Labour Brexit policies anyway?

Evidence suggests not. See Peterborough. And again, listen to the MPs who represent these constituencies. Also see my earlier comment that I believe many remain labour voters will grit their teeth and vote labour because there is simply no alternative which can beat the tories and the brexit party.

https://twitter.com/j_amesp/status/1140614862822920193?s=21

Edit – I meant to post this in a different thread – but on reflection, it fits in here just fine.

Hmm .. trying hard to be the bigger person here, and probably failing.

For me keeping FOM is the biggest issue by far. Should I vote for the party most likely to deliver that, or should I vote for the party that is generally better for the country. In the past, I’ve chosen the latter route, voting to be taxed more because I thought it was right. Now that the poorer areas of the country have voted in a way that damages my life, do I still have a responsibility to turn the other cheek and vote to support them? Or do I say “sod that”, and vote for my own selfish interests?