Perhaps the forum members here are not universally moneyed up selfish bum holes that just can’t wait to halve the salary of their sandwich factory slaves.

I apologise to all supercar driving pistonheads forum members who own a different sort of business.

And unlike facebook, we seem to be quite light on flag waving racist nazis Farage fanboys.

Battle lines are being drawn. About time.

So the Lib dems have accepted Chuka into their fold. Shame, they had been doing so well recently, accepting this “shiny suit politician without philosophy” damages their brand IMO.

Why is this place sounding so sensible when other forums/Facebook whatever are full of rabid leavers?

There are a lot of people on the politics threads who are good at debating and questioning a point and request evidence/backup of statement made. There have been Brexiters on the thread through the years but they now fall at the first hurdle of “What is Brexit going to deliver that will a) be of benefit and b) allow us to do something we couldn’t do already”

It’s not even a) and b), just one thing that does a) or b) would be good!

There are a lot of people on the politics threads who are good at debating and questioning a point and request evidence/backup of statement made.

Moreover, on the wider Internet there isn’t. I’ve seen this happen on remain FB groups even (though far, far less often than leave ones), there’s plenty of folk susceptible to Fake News on both sides of the coin. People are generally very quick to believe something that reinforces their existing views (which, of course, is how we got to this point).

As you say though, STW on the other hand has a healthy collection of mass debaters well practised in going “prove it” any time someone dares to try and claim that grass is green. With a handful of notable exceptions, most of the leavers have scuttled off now as their arguments have been challenged and demonstrated to be baseless. This challenging isn’t really happening effectively elsewhere, people are just getting angry and abusive at each other, which of course will earn you time off on here.

And if you remove people’s ability to be shouty, what else have they got left? Either change the subject, come out with some bollocks like “what part of leave don’t you understand?” or scuttle back under their rock to be jingoistic in private.

/ bullied/ insulted / banned /

Plenty of reasons to leave the EU, of course we are better off in.

Errm…

Sorry, but I am yet to be convinced of any, let alone “plenty”…

Blue passports, bendy bananas and exciting new trade deals with Mauritania. Haven’t you been paying attention?

Probably should have phrased it “plenty of faults with EU” but anyway the biggest for me is CAP

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/10/brexit-leaving-eu-farming-agriculture

Why is this place sounding so sensible when other forums/Facebook whatever are full of rabid leavers?

The educational level of this place is rather different to that of pistonheads, I think. There was a survey last year and the number of PhDs around here was ridiculous. And the strongest indicator of brexit voting choice was educational attainment – much stronger than age/class/wealth etc.

I don’t think the quality of debate here is much cop at all. It’s just an echo chamber of remainers and Corbyn haters confirming each others positions. Fairly ill informed to boot

That’s a somewhat different proposition, and I’d certainly agree that the EU is not perfect.

If only there was a way we could retain some kind of influence, and try to improve it…

Edit – this was in response to the “plenty of faults with the EU” post, up there… ^^^^

Fairly ill informed to boot

Well inform us.

CAP

Sadly Monbiot finishes off with “I don’t have all the answers, and I doubt anyone else does”. Which is less than helpful, especially from someone who repeatedly claims change is needed in agriculture (e.g. get those sheep off the hills).

Well inform us

Don’t encourage him.

I don’t know how much my brother receives via CAP but I do know he gets a lot (as in many thousands of pounds) of EU money to let gorse grow on one of the rough plots of land on the farm. It’s not the gorse itself that’s important but there’s a flower that relies on the gorse and a rare butterfly that relies on the flower.

I’d agree that CAP is somewhat past its sell-by date, it was after all in reaction to wartime and post-war food shortages.

I don’t know anything about CAP, but if there’s a problematic EU policy then isn’t that exactly why we have UK MEPs?

Inform you? I have tried. No one is listening. Not all are ill-informed but there is a lot of nonsense posted here.

CAP has been heavily reformed… and needs further reform… but what REALLY needs reform is how we implement it in England & Wales. Go back a few hundred pages for a good discussion about that. Anyway, all very well to throw away the current imperfect support for agriculture… but you sure as hell better have something better planned before you propose dumping it completely…

That’s the point right there, kelvin – there are probably quite a few imperfect things that we could point at and say “there, that’s not very good, is it? “, but there’s absolutely no plan for anything better.

I’d think about moving my position if there was, but I just don’t see anything…

[strong]ctk[/strong] wrote:

Probably should have phrased it “plenty of faults with EU” but anyway the biggest for me is CAP
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/10/brexit-leaving-eu-farming-agriculture

As a farmer, being in the CAP is about the best bit of being in the EU. It may not be perfect, but it has been absolutely effective in achieving all its’ aims since its introduction. The problem is that the aims of the CAP lag about 10-15 years behind those of society, as it takes a lot of time to redesign policy and to get it introduced and accepted. And please take anything written by Monbiot with a pinch of salt. He is great at pointing out the bad in things (much of which I can agree with), but extremely poor at coming up with any workable better alternatives. His arguments always seem to end up blaming everything on the rich and can usually be solved in his opinion by some sort of socialist utopia instead.

but if there’s a problematic EU policy then isn’t that exactly why we have UK MEPs?

And they’d be pretty much useless as whilst the euro parliament has the legal power it very rarely (or ever) challenges euro legislation as decided by the unelected euro commission. If you want to go looking for faults in the EU, this is the place to start.

Not that the UK system is any better mind you, and the above is in no way a justification of our own semi-democratic unaccountable semi-dictatorship of the elite.

Buzzword Bingo!

I don’t think the quality of debate here is much cop at all. It’s just an echo chamber of remainers and Corbyn haters confirming each others positions. Fairly ill informed to boot

If only we had a self-proclaimed “political geek” to help us.

Buzzword bingo!

One of the weird things about brexit is that it has turned many centre left liberals into unashamed fanboys for a system which has massively amplified inequality via socialism  for the rich.

The UK is the worst proponent of this but the EU isn’t much better, and the brexiteers have a point (even if it is transparently hypocritical) that UK voters have little power to change it in the EU compared to the UK govt.

One of the weird things about brexit is that it has turned many centre left liberals into unashamed fanboys for a system which has massively amplified inequality via socialism for the rich.

any examples of this?

Not all are ill-informed but there is a lot of nonsense posted here.

There is.

UK voters have little power to change it in the EU compared to the UK govt.

Well of course not. Have you seen the quality of the diplomatic MEPs we send to represent us?

Have you seen the quality of our current government?

They are not interested in engaging and influencing and improving society, their modus operandi is clear.

Make money, offshore it.

UK voters have little power to change it in the EU compared to the UK govt

Most UK voters have a representive for their region in the European Parliament who is from a party they voted for. Most UK voters do not have a representative for their constituency in the UK Parliament from a party that they voted for.

But, ultimately, the EU is a collection of countries, and most of the power still sits with each sovereign government. So, if the UK government is distant from most UK voters, then that gap is just amplified when that government plays its part in EU decision making.

The tories moved their meps from the centre right group in the Eu parliament where they had a fair amount of influence to a far right group where they were ignored.

We could have had the same influence as Germany and France but choose not to.

 don’t think the quality of debate here is much cop at all.

You’re including yourself in that criticism I take it?  You can be as blind to next poster when presented with facts that don’t confirm to your opinion.

Anyone who doesn’t agree with me is clearly a barely-sentient, semi-literate, unthinking half-wit.

If only everyone actually had enough intelligence to recognise this…

Sadly not, so I must bear the cross of my obvious superiority alone

It can be a lonely place….

Interesting (and astute) opinion piece in the Farmers Guardian. Raises a lot of valid points that I think could apply to just about any group of Brexit voters. Just change the things that people complain about and then see the hypocrisy in arguing for a hard Brexit.

https://www.fginsight.com/brexit-hub/brexit—farmer-comment/recent-rain-should-teach-us-to-be-careful-what-we-wish-for-when-it-comes-to-brexit

Can you check that link, I got a 404…?

try this

whilst the euro parliament has the legal power it very rarely (or ever) challenges euro legislation as decided by the unelected euro commission.

Assuming that to actually be true,

One might conclude then that those unelected bureaucrats are in fact doing a good job, if one didn’t have an agenda to peddle which conflicted with such a conclusion. If the parliament were kicking back proposed legislation from the commission at every turn then that would be a greater cause for concern as to the commission’s competence, n’est-ce pas?

One might conclude then that those unelected bureaucrats are in fact doing a good job

Indeed they are. We have lost the ability to achieve consensus politics in the kingdom since “she who shall not be named” was in power. Now it’s all “for my party” and not what is in the country’s best interest in the manner of “Butskillism”.

With luck and a following wind this could signal the death of the Conservative and Unionist Party. In this area only Corbyn is playing a passive blinder and a very long game.

Why is this place sounding so sensible when other forums/Facebook whatever are full of rabid leavers? I’ve been on Pistonheads occasionally and it’s completely the opposite dynamic where the bias is generally towards leave, or at least the most vocal element is. Have the dissenters simply been shouted down by the liberal majority on here or is there something more fundamental about a mountainbiker’s approach to life?

Here you have more remainders with older forum members.
Perhaps it is a sign of riding mountainbikes? I don’t know.
Education is rather irrelevant as it is an emotional topic.
As for the dissenters I am still here as a person who has voted for Brexit.
People on here generally disagree with me regarding Brexit but they are not shouting as far as I know, but they do have strong opinion though. 😀

p/s: Now watching Channel 4 – Conservative leadership debate … crikey … these are bunch of administrators with good life and handsome pension …

One might conclude then that those unelected bureaucrats are in fact doing a good job

Or maybe the commission talks to the MEPs and knows what they want, so they draft what they know will be voted through?

Are the lecturns on the Tory leadership debate jam packed cabinets full of snorting candy – for during the ads?