EU Referendum – are you in or out?

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  • EU Referendum – are you in or out?
  • Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    Good way of putting it Cougar, if we had not joined we would be the basket case hanging off the side of the continent, isolated and stunted begging at the door while whistling Rule Britannia

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    Probably, but TBH it’s hard to say what might have happened in the Mirror Universe in those intermediate 40-odd years.

    Point was, for better or worse we’ve spent years slowly integrating more and more with the rest of the EU, delegating to the Union all the shit that we don’t want to or have to deal with ourselves. Whether or not we were “OK before” is by the by, you can’t just rip out all that integration and replace it with nothing at all other than the hope that we’ll “probably be OK again.”

    mattyfez
    Member

    Probably also worth noting that a USA trade deal won’t be good for the UK either with or without a hard Irish border.

    https://m.independent.ie/business/brexit/a-hard-border-between-ireland-and-northern-ireland-would-prevent-usuk-trade-deal-post-brexit-nancy-pelosi-38018664.html

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    Probably, but TBH it’s hard to say what might have happened in the Mirror Universe in those intermediate 40-odd years.

    A lot of egg and pineapple

    Plenty of the investment coming over to the UK would not be here, it’s what will not come to the UK from any leave point forward.

    mattyfez
    Member

    Ratty bits of gammon aways seem to have egg on thier face.

    It’s the metaphor that keeps on giving.

    Tinned pineapple ring on top sir?

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    It’s hard to see how the UK economy would have grown quite so much without all the EU immigrants coming here and working. The work they do generates profit for businesses.

    On the other hand though… Without them, but with the skills and expertise perhaps we’d have been forced to automate further… Hmm.. interesting economic point.

    Did I tell the story about the tree stump machine I saw being used to remove a tree in the USA? Two blokes cut down a small tree, fed it whole via a machine into a chipper, then removed the stump with another machine all in about half an hour. Spending money on machines only makes economic sense if you can’t get cheap workers to do it buy hand for less. So the lack of cheap labour makes the workers more productive and also creates a highly skilled economy in the design and manufacture of the machines.

    So perhaps with less cheap labour we’d have been forced to mechanise; or maybe we’d have just not bothered and left the tree where it was. Or not built the car, so someone couldn’t buy it and remained a one car family, so one spouse had to get work in the corner shop instead of being able to drive to the skilled job at the tree stump machine maker.

    Any economists in?

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    Did I tell the story about the tree stump machine I saw being used to remove a tree in the USA? Two blokes cut down a small tree, fed it whole via a machine into a chipper, then removed the stump with another machine all in about half an hour. Spending money on machines only makes economic sense if you can’t get cheap workers to do it buy hand for less. So the lack of cheap labour makes the workers more productive and also creates a highly skilled economy in the design and manufacture of the machines.

    That would prove a point if the US did not have cheap labour available to them, both in the form of immigrants going cash in hand and the locals being screwed over. Automation is not about saving the labour cost it’s about doing it again and again and again the same way in the same time until time stops. It’s one of the more common misconceptions when replacing labour with automation, it doesn’t need to be faster just pay back over time, for the guy in the states he just needs keep doing it when he has the machine. Plenty of farm contractors in the UK exploiting the same equation.

    Not an economist – just sack people and replace them with robots

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    Also,

    Removing tree stumps by hand is an abject bastard of a job.

    kerley
    Member

    Any economists in?

    They won’t really help as your guess is as good as theirs on what may or may not have happened over the last 40 years.
    What trade relationship would we have developed (could be similar to what we have in EU), what immigration policies would we have (again could be similar to what we have in the EU) etc,.

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    What trade relationship would we have developed (could be similar to what we have in EU), what immigration policies would we have (again could be similar to what we have in the EU) etc,.

    Alternatively, we could all be speaking German by now.

    (-:

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    could be similar to what we have in EU

    A timely reminder that we shaped the EU, especially as regards the creation and extension of the Single Market, and the expansion of our trade area to the East. We are not passive hangers on (yet)… so what we have in the EU now simply wouldn’t exist if we hadn’t been central to its creation.

    Also, this smacks of…
    all the benefits of, but not a member of ” nonsense that Conservatives and Labour alike have either utterly misunderstood, or used to mislead us, over the last few years.

    Premier Icon Dickyboy
    Subscriber

    damn turks coming over ‘ere stealing our building jobs

    I’m actually working on a site in Central London run by a Turkish main contractor right now and all the staff there seem to be Turkish.

    swamp_boy
    Member

    duplicate deleted

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    Well it looks like the TIGgers have got their shit together and are now an official political party who remainers can vote for in the upcoming EU elections, should they fancy

    I can only see one result of this: The Tory’s and Labour will now ensure a stitch-up to get Mays deal through as the leadership of both parties would much rather this than no Brexit at all, and they both know they will be decimated in any EU elections. So I reckon they’ll both whip their MP’s (or at least try to) to get this through in time to make sure that we’re not participating in them, possibly with a couple of token amendments chucked in

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    Nah, Labour will expect to do very well in these elections… and I suspect they are right… most voters, understandably, won’t have a clear view of their Brexit policy… but feel it can’t be as bad as May’s or those in her party that seek to replace her. There are people who post here that still think Corbyn wants a Soft Brexit, or supports a referendum if he becomes PM… and they are probably far more in touch with what has actually been said by key politicians and their staff than the average voter.

    The Conservative party on the other hand…

    Premier Icon edhornby
    Subscriber

    good thing about the elections is that the parties will have to write something on paper that is pro-EU which will come back to haunt them.

    although if either/both get a drubbing there may not be that much impact as the general election is a long way off yet and the papers will just ignore the EU elections when the GE comes round.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    That would prove a point if the US did not have cheap labour available to them

    Not necessarily, the US is not homogeneous. Immigrants will go to places with lots of work. This particular place was a dull quiet place with low immigration and a static workforce. They can’t get people in from New Mexico just to look after the park.

    Premier Icon Del
    Subscriber

    You’ve never seen a stump grinder in use in the UK? Most people can’t be bothered to remove them I suppose, and they are pretty lively bits of kit.

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    Not necessarily, the US is not homogeneous.

    The US doen not need immigration for cheap labour, it has its own citizens for that, working 53 weeks a year and paying their own healthcare. It might be good for the ones in nice jobs it’s fairly shit for the others.

    Worth a watch, Carole Cadwalladr (pullitzer prize finalist along with the NY times OR mad cat lady according to “not a sexist” A.F. Neil) at TED. HERE
    Also worth a watch, Channel 4 news last night. HERE

    Jon Snow says theres more to come from Channel 4 this evening.

    If only there were some talking points or themes that the official opposition in the UK could use to highlight why Brexit might not be our best interests.

    Ho Hum.

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    Has everyone been enjoying the brief re-emergence of normal pre-Brexit life?

    Where you can actually turn the news on and you’re not immediately greeted with Farage or Rees Mogg looking disgruntled, or Theresa Mays rictus grin as she placates them? Or open a news website and read a story that doesn’t involve any reference to the customs union or the backstop?

    It’s coming to something when watching an iconic cathedral burn down is infinitely preferable to the alternative?

    alcolepone
    Member

    eat_the_pudding…. those are interesting videos.

    seriously thinking of removing myself from facebook….

    Unfortunately Lazy Nigel is being anything but lazy with his campaigning to get re-elected to the European Parliament. So I’m still catching a lot of glimpses of a campaign going on that doesn’t appear to have a counter campaign. Where are the pro-EU parties campaigning? Why is Farridge holding rallies when the rest of the political class are taking a holiday, whilst partially distracted by impending local elections?

    I fear he may be getting the run-up to the EU Elections that he craves, and there’s going to be another “mandate for Brexit” that will be hard to counter.

    It turns out that Scotland are polling very well for SNP in the Euro Elections, why did they let themselves down so badly in the 2017 General Election?

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    The US doen not need immigration for cheap labour, it has its own citizens for that, working 53 weeks a year and paying their own healthcare. It might be good for the ones in nice jobs it’s fairly shit for the others.

    Well aware of that, but why does the city pay tens of thousands for a machine instead of paying labourers peanuts?

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    Well aware of that, but why does the city pay tens of thousands for a machine instead of paying labourers peanuts?

    Many reasons, reliability and repeat ability, no need to worry about alchol and drug issues, better long term performance, ROI calcs to show at what point you hit profit etc. deploying the good staff you have somewhere useful

    Premier Icon Speeder
    Subscriber

    Very true about no counter argument. There’s no big backer or newsworthy politicos with a vested interest in the remain side of the argument, Leave is an easier sell as it’s something new and the grass is always greener. Even when we’ve looked over the fence and it’s not.

    alcolepone,
    Yup me too.
    I’ve not been on facebook for long, or for much, but it would still be inconvenient to leave as it just sucks you back in.
    But is that any excuse after what they’ve done?

    I just hope that there is some sort of reckoning for political advertising. At this stage a ban on political advertising on social networks would be the best easiest and most effective option.

    Theres no real point in getting uptight about the possible implications of the european elections. The parties _can’t_ practically work together enough to have a single “remain” vote. But even if Nige wins more MEPs (which he might) its the numbers of voters that matter more.

    VOTE!

    Premier Icon Greybeard
    Subscriber

    Point was, for better or worse we’ve spent years slowly integrating more and more with the rest of the EU

    Absolutely, we’ve expanded the docks at places like Felixstowe and closed them in Liverpool, built the Tunnel, etc. Infrastructure changes like that are not cheap to do.

    why does the city pay tens of thousands for a machine

    Quicker, for one thing, minimises the disruption to the area.

    the TIGgers have got their shit together and are now an official political party who remainers can vote for in the upcoming EU elections, should they fancy

    They’ve stated that they will treat the European elections as a proxy referendum.

    Premier Icon hot_fiat
    Subscriber

    My mum bought my daughter this lovely cuddly toy in Austria this week. I think it’s the perfect Brexit emoji

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    A presentation drawn up by the Home Secretary’s Policy Unit and sent to HMRC and the Treasury implies that they think a technological solution – which would aim to keep the Irish border entirely open and without physical checkpoints – is a distant (and likely very expensive) prospect.

    https://news.sky.com/story/technological-solution-to-irish-border-issue-could-be-a-decade-away-says-home-office-document-11696337

    Premier Icon MSP
    Subscriber

    Of course the brexiters will, rather than admit that they have again been bullshitted by the likes of the ERG, will take that as justification for not being “trapped” in the backstop.

    Premier Icon Greybeard
    Subscriber

    All the technological border options are limited to managing compliant traffic. They can’t stop smugglers or illegal immigrants. Consider that we still have a hard border at Dover with both sides in the EU.

    grahamh
    Member

    All the technological border options are limited to managing compliant traffic. They can’t stop smugglers or illegal immigrants.

    You just killed a Unicorn.

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    Brexit Unicorn in the wild

    Bwhahahah – Corbyns still a brexiteer deep down isn’t he judging by the pic! The 6th former just got told!

    Is that Corbyn realising that the Demos don’t like him and nor do any of the lefty European parties? Who are going to be his mates if he becomes PM, Cuba?

    flipiddy
    Member

    PA: Here is a handy list of Brexit supporting business in the UK.

    Feel free to boycott (or support) depending upon your disposition.

    List 1

    Let’s make a list of Brexit funding businesses to avoid! from brexit

    List 2

    More Brexit Backers to Boycott from brexit

    flipiddy
    Member

    @hot_fiat That is genius.

    Brexit Emoji

    Hey Siri, show me an Emoji that sums up Brexit

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