EU Referendum – are you in or out?

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  • EU Referendum – are you in or out?
  • Premier Icon zippykona
    Subscriber

    I had the opportunity to go and work in Australia. Without a doubt the best thing that could have ever happened to me. It’s when I grew up and learnt to stand on my own 2 feet.

    To deny our young people that experience on our doorstep without having to jump through hoops is a disgrace.

    As a child of the early 70s being a racist prick was the default mode in my family and that was how I was raised . Even reverting to my flag waving, English mans home is his castle mode I can not see just one benefit of brexit. Only this country being reduced to the laughing stock of Europe again. Even if a beneficial brexit was possible , do we really have the people capable of delivering it? No we do not. All of our best players have **** off.

    To you leavers who come on here with your Engerland swagger , I was more of a **** than you’ll ever be , so grow up ,think straight and just put your hate away.

    Times have changed.

    koldun
    Member

    @kerley

    And whose life will be utterly turned over by a Brexit with customs union and in what way?

    Mine potentially. For over 10 years i’ve exercised my right to freedom of movement and worked around Europe. I don’t make much money but i get a fair quality of life and had some great experiences. However this does rely on freedom of movement, right to work in the EU, reciprocal health agreements and EU pension agreement. The exact status of all of these things following Brexit is unknown, maybe it will all be fine, maybe i’ll be forced to move back to the UK, who knows but the whole thing does make me more than a little angry /shrug

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    UK people won’t be able to go on holiday to Spain anymore?

    Have you visited Spain recently?
    Have you visited the US recently?
    Were those two processes comparable?

    kerley
    Member

    Have you visited Spain recently?
    Have you visited the US recently?
    Were those two processes comparable?

    Different processes but so what. It is hardly difficult to go on holiday to US is it. Just a bit dramatic.

    kerley
    Member

    Mine potentially.

    Okay so yours, potentially. Again, to the average person (i.e. the 90+%) it will make no difference.
    Ask people in 5 years what has changed and what was the point of leaving the EU and most won’t have even noticed other than being told we left. Obviously that goes the other way and is why we shouldn’t be leaving in the first place.

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    Ask people in 5 years… what was the point of leaving the EU

    We’ve been doing that for three years so far and not got a credible answer yet, so you’re probably right there.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    So if 90% of people still have no idea how major policy decisions effect the other 10%… will that be as a result of people who keep pointing out those effects… or those that keep denying them… @kerley?

    (I think those % are utter nonsense by the way… a quick consideration of my immediate neighbours suggests that everyone has a family or work interest that will be effected by ending FoM and/or leaving the Single Market).

    Premier Icon edhornby
    Subscriber

    It’s not holiday that’s the issue Kerley, it’s work; have you ever applied for a US Green card or even presented at the US border and said ‘business’ rather than pleasure ? compared to the EU where we get on the Eurostar at London and get off at paris with no questions other than the guard checking your train ticket and passport

    edit: also we access the US as a member of the EU. We have no method for doing this when we leave (thanks to that useless nerk Fox) so if we were to crash out then our passport would be as useful as a Cuban one

    Premier Icon P-Jay
    Subscriber

    what difference does it make to our daily lives whether we leave the EU or remain??

    Directly, probably very little. I don’t get to travel much and whilst we’re going to France and Italy on Holiday this year, we’re flying into Switzerland and will likely not face passport checks to travel between the 3.

    Indirectly? Who knows, we still don’t know what the situation will be do we? The most dramatic possibility / answer is a clean break / no deal – we’ll leave at the end of Oct or whenever the latest deadline is. My Employer could, in theory at least be in real, real trouble day one.

    Microsoft, who provide us will 70%-ish of the stuff we use/sell haven’t given any real indication of how things could work in a no-trade or this so-called WTO scenario – mostly likely we’d have to trade with their US HQ which would mean a trade tariff and a jump in pricing. A ‘worst case’ potential out-come is that our cloud services, e-mail and office suite (and that of our clients) effectively stops working as it’s all subscription based now and not bought outright.

    The rest of the tools we use or resell aren’t UK based, ironically our AV provider was until a few weeks ago but have moved to a global platform which we might technically mean we can’t resell until we have an international trade agreement of some sort.

    TBH I don’t suspect we’ll ‘go dark’ at 11pm or whatever, common sense (which up to now doesn’t seem to have played much of a part in the Brexit debate other than the usual Daily Mail sense of the word aka ‘opinion that suits my purposes’) will means a few pop ups and warnings but otherwise business as usual.

    Our clients, who we sort of need to keep paying us to stay in business equally don’t really know how they’ll be affected until we know, well, how they’ll be affected. Some trade with the EU directly, some indirectly – one is especially vulnerable as they make small bits and bobs for various car makers, they’re desperately looking for new customers as they don’t expect to have their contracts renewed at the end of their current terms and have been warned that all contracts are null and void in the advent of a ‘no deal’.

    Some sort of deal would be preferable then, Corbyn’s Customers Union and Single Market deal would be nice short-term as effectively nothing changes from a business point of view – but long term, as our influence diminishes within the EU our terms will our biggest trading partner will worsen, that’s just how international trade works. As the angry man on the news said the other day, if you’re not at the table, you’re on the menu. May’s harder break would be worse short-term and I don’t know if it could ever be made better long-term – national ego aside we’re the worlds 5th largest economy at the moment, but with 6 of the other top twenty all in the same league (along with 20 other large economies) and an economy largely based on servicing the rest of the world, we might find ourselves falling down the order.

    MSP
    Member

    It is just the usual right wing dogma though, isolate another few percentage of the population, throw them on the scrap heap, blame the victims. It has been hugely successful for the past 40 years, the cult of “self” has allowed the few to really repress the many.

    And again it is a campaign methodology that exposes who is really behind brexit.

    cchris2lou
    Member

    As a Franco British family, end of FOM is big for us. For the past 20 years we have traveled between the two countries very easily, and lived and worked in both as well.

    Ask people in 5 years what has changed and what was the point of leaving the EU and most won’t have even noticed

    I only have three cousins, one lives and works in Sardinia. One lives and works in Germany and the other France. All of them have the freedom of choice to do so. I can visit them easily and cheaply. I love doing so as I feel lucky to be able to spend time in different cultures. My eldest kid was planning to fly to Sardinia this summer to hang out with my Cousin, that has been binned due to the uncertainty of Brexit (young solo flyer traveling alone for the first time, didn’t want to risk it). In the future my kids will not have ease of movement and opportunity afforded to our generation, that sucks.

    The reason most leavers claim they won’t notice leaving is that they do not read economic arguments, they don’t understand trading relationships, they don’t have an interest in living abroad, they don’t understand how the EU works, they don’t have the ability to form their own, informed opinions. But hey, we’re taking back control.

    nick1962
    Member

    Some sort of deal would be preferable then, Corbyn’s Customers Union and Single Market deal would be nice short-term as effectively nothing changes from a business point of view – but long term, as our influence diminishes within the EU our terms will our biggest trading partner will worsen, that’s just how international trade works. As the angry man on the news said the other day, if you’re not at the table, you’re on the menu

    Ken Clarke,that arch Brexiteer 😉 said something interesting about being in the Custom’s Union and seemed quite relaxed about still having an influence on EU policy.He has been there and so should know what he’s talking about.He said that when the EU are deciding policy then everyone who is affiliated to the EU in the varying degrees of membership is there and has their say in formulating policy and their views are taken into account.When the final decision is to be made then only the voting members go into another room and vote and make the actual decision.In his experience the final decision taken has always been what was agreed outside the room.Now obviously there are no guarantees that it will always be like that but his view was that is how the EU works,it wants consensus.

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    The customs union is the deal the brexiters don’t want, it’s the best one to vote on as it’s not great for anyone but simply won’t satisfy the full on leavers.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    It’s the same with the Single Market Nick… of course the EU “listens” to what those operating in the Single Market but not EU members want… but ultimately it can ignore them… or, to be more polite, give them less weighting than the concerns of actual members who have voting and veto rights.

    Premier Icon P-Jay
    Subscriber

    The customs union is the deal the brexiters don’t want, it’s the best one to vote on as it’s not great for anyone but simply won’t satisfy the full on leavers.

    The ERG ones anyway, this really is one of those “bad referendum” problems – lumping everyone who had an issue with the EU in the same camp has made some odd bedfellows.

    The hardcore Capitalists couldn’t give two hoots about FOM or really immigration at all, as long as they can make a quick buck now.

    The hardcore Socialists don’t care about incoming trade tariffs as long as they can end FOM to stop UK workers being under-cut in the UK.

    The Xenophobes don’t care about the economy (because it’s all bollocks anyway isn’t it?) as long as they can stop ’em coming over ‘er amd send ’em back! (providing they can ex-pat to Spain to live the rest of their lives looking like old leather).

    And the arsehole Politicians, of which there are surprisingly few, just care about putting the boot in as much as possible to further their own career.

    Try going on holiday to USA with a criminal record….

    Premier Icon slowoldman
    Subscriber

    But hey, we’re taking back control.

    …and giving it to…?

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    I had the opportunity to go and work in Australia. Without a doubt the best thing that could have ever happened to me. It’s when I grew up and learnt to stand on my own 2 feet.

    and I was sat in Australia wondering what the impact of a fairly significant life event was going to have on my ability to keep my job and stay living there, it’s a really stressful thing and really doesn’t lead to stability or happy people.
    People working in the US not on green cards are faced with the need to pack up and leave if they lose their job – that is the level of crap that we want to impose on thousands of hard working people who have helped shape modern britian.

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber
    Premier Icon zippykona
    Subscriber

    When i explain to my vote leaving mum that “they” are trying to make a law to stop English people retiring, moving or working abroad she asks” why are they trying to do that?

    I then explain that ” they” are she.

    Slowly the penny is dropping. She still likes that nice Mr Johnson.

    taxi25
    Member

    “they” are trying to make a law to stop English people retiring, moving or working abroad she asks”

    I’m with your mum, what law is that
    ?

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    Better phrased change the law to make it harder, more expensive and remove a lot of the reciprocal arrangements.

    Premier Icon slowoldman
    Subscriber

    Working class man reckons someone called ‘Annunziata Rees-Mogg’ is on his side

    Quite. Depressing isn’t it? They haven’t quite got the party name right for real popular appeal. They need something which suggests socialism and the nation. Any thoughts?

    nick1962
    Member

    Try going on holiday to USA with a criminal record….

    Which is precisely why the “taking back control of our borders” has gained so much traction don’t you think?

    sobriety
    Member

    Yup, and iirc and we’ve been over this about a million times, we can apply very similar laws on immigration even while remaining in the EU and abiding by their laws, but in order to enforce those laws we would need an effective border force at ports. Which would cost money, which our govt are allergic to spending, unless it’s for expenses or buying off religous extremists.

    nick1962
    Member

    It’s the same with the Single Market Nick… of course the EU “listens” to what those operating in the Single Market but not EU members want… but ultimately it can ignore them… or, to be more polite, give them less weighting than the concerns of actual members who have voting and veto rights.

    Which is why I posted what Ken’s experiences were and said
    “Now obviously there are no guarantees that it will always be like that but his view was that is how the EU works,it wants consensus.
    As regards the veto and voting rights I’m not sure what the position actually is now with getting things passed, does it still need unanimity? Happy to be enlightened.I know the UK famously had a veto but not so sure what it can use it on anymore or if it still even has it.

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    Happy to be enlightened.I know the UK famously had a veto but not so sure what it can use it on anymore or if it still even has it.

    No offence but have you tried google there? It’s all out there, heaps and heaps of information on all of this.

    nick1962
    Member

    I’m disappointed mike.Why Google it when you know everything and are usually so happy to enlighten everyone on every possible subject.

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    because we are just repeating stuff over and over again….

    Sometimes if you want to know something take a look, have a read up and then ask the question, that is how some of us learned something.

    nick1962
    Member

    And the reason I made the comment was precisely because the EU fanbois might google it themselves and see the complexity of the EU decision making process.Clearly that went over your usually so smarty pants head.

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    Edinburgh Defence or just a bit of trolling there?

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    the EU fanbois

    You do realise, don’t you, that it’s possible to understand that the UK being a member of the EU is preferable to us not being so, without being a “fanboi”? I live in a shitty mid-terrace in a deprived area of the country, but just because I’ve no desire to be homeless doesn’t suddenly imply that I believe that it’s a mansion in a leafy Surrey suburb. If you can find anyone in the last 60-odd thousand posts here claiming they think the EU is perfect you can have my bike.

    Honestly, it’s this sort of “if you love the EU why don’t you live there” cretinous attitude that helped get us to where we are now in the first place. This thread is over 1,600 pages long and I’d guess that fully a third of it is people explaining things, but it’s ultimately futile because those asking questions and stating “facts” don’t want to listen to answers and explanations.

    chewkw
    Member

    EU fanbois

    👆 that description is so funny. 🤣

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    Another valuable contribution.

    Premier Icon slowoldman
    Subscriber

    So I quickly Googled UK veto and the first link was to fullfact.org

    British influence in the EU Council of Ministers

    Some interesting information there not just on the veto but other areas of practice in the EU. It really does sound pretty democratic.

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    EU fanbois

    Sounds like some sort of French liqueur TBH.

    kerley
    Member

    You do realise, don’t you, that it’s possible to understand that the UK being a member of the EU is preferable to us not being so, without being a “fanboi”?

    Exactly. I don’t really like the EU, I wouldn’t want to join if not already in it and I think it needs to be radically reformed. But, there is no way I think leaving is a good idea.

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    That’s a good point. If roles were reversed – if we never joined and were discussing whether or not to join – I’m not sure how I’d vote for many of the concerns leavers are citing now. But voting in and voting out are very different affairs.

    Consider, in 1975 we decided to have a heart transplant. In 2016 we decided to have the transplant removed, and now three years later some of us are going “I can’t understand why you can’t just take it out!”

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