If they ignore a majority outcome in an indicative vote then the no confidence motion that will be placed I suspect will pass a

That would require the Tories to vote for a General election – which ain’t gonna happen.

Looking ever more certain that we will crash out with no deal.

That would require the Tories to vote for a General election – which ain’t gonna happen.

Depends how many she has pissed off.

To be honest we need to see where this next vote goes.

By the noises coming out of Brussels this morning, it sounds like the EU are taking a No Deal Crash out as a given. Its difficult to see anythign else really

I think that between now and that ultimately inevitable event we’re going to witness levels of self-serving muppetry an epic incompetence on a truly biblical scale. I know we’ve see that already but I’ve got a horrible sinking feeling that we ain’t seen nothing yet

If we have a general election, won’t we just be faced with the same choice as last time. 2 parties of useless self-serving muppets, both of whom seek to deliver some fantasy cake-and-eat-it Brexit?

No, I’ll be voting for a third party, who don’t want any Brexit at  all and have been completely united in their opposition to it throughout the process

They’re only standing in 58 seats though.

So, here’s the question…If the SNP didn’t constantly bang on about independence all the time and stood nationally with rest of their manifesto  except the independence stuff would you vote for them instead?

So… we’re having another vote until we get the answer we want? It’d be amusing if the Tories had to go cap in hand to TIG for support.

Brexit aside, the whole thing is a farce. Not only could government not organise a piss-up in a brewery, when they tried they used actual piss. It’s truly an embarrassment.

If we have a general election, won’t we just be faced with the same choice as last time. 2 parties of useless self-serving muppets, both of whom seek to deliver some fantasy cake-and-eat-it Brexit?

Well if the 56% or whatever it is now of voters decide “just this once” to consider Brexit to be the single most important issue the country faces at the moment and more important than party loyalty, a non-Brexit party could form a government in a GE.

What about MPs of all parties making it clear they support either a referendum on the deal, or parliament stopping Brexit by recinding A50? Should they be unopposed by this mythical “anti-Brexit” party? I mentioned that a TORY GOVERNMENT MINISTER has said he will back a vote in parliament to recind A50 now. Plenty of Labour MPs have been talking sense for months (years) on this as well. A general election will solve nothing on its own. Get Brexit stopped (or at least made clear and let us vote to accept/reject it) and then a general election will be follow on behind before you know it. May can’t survive that, and nor can any replacement Tory government avoid seeking a new mandate.

I don’t think a second referendum would solve anything unless it was a massive landslide towards a meaningful outcome (i.e. either Revoke A50, accept May’s Deal, or No Deal).

Chances are though that it will be a marginal decision and just raise tensions on the “will of the people” still further.

Insightful and damning article by the FT (no pay wall).
https://www.ft.com/content/5f3df8bc-4c03-11e9-bde6-79eaea5acb64

BBC R4 world at one talking like indicative votes and parliament taking control of the house is a certainty.

I don’t think a second referendum would solve anything unless it was a massive landslide towards a meaningful outcome (i.e. either Revoke A50, accept May’s Deal, or No Deal).

It’s what would happen in between now and then that would be meaningful.

In a democratic environment, the ability to gather facts and review a current state of affairs in light of new information is universally the most appropriate way forward. We have reached the point where we have the ability to take a period of reflection, debate, and inform the nation of what could lie ahead.

Without this, ploughing ahead regardless of consequences will set a chain of events that will almost certainly not be seen kindly in history.

I don’t think a second referendum would solve anything unless it was a massive landslide towards a meaningful outcome (i.e. either Revoke A50, accept May’s Deal, or No Deal).

I don’t think anything will fix anything quickly.

In my mind we have a acute problem – we need to do something with Brexit in days, not months or years. We can’t ignore it (not that it’s really possible) and parliament can’t do it. Sadly, all the very factions apart from the ones who just want to remain are too busy fighting tooth and nail to accept the chance of losing fairly with a vote based on fact and not fiction. If they can get over that, of just enough MPs in the middle can, then a Deal v Remain vote will break that deadlock. Ignore the **** who think WTO is a good idea or are making bullshit claims of being able to sort a better deal in days with the EU who aren’t open to that. It’s deal or remain, that’s the only two real options.

Then there’s the chronic problem of decades of distrust of the EU and the hatred and bile that’s built up between normal people in the UK, the Hard Right EDL / UKIP and Hard Left Socialist Workers Party types are few in number and deeply entrenched. Frankly most of them are so full of hate of the people who they’ve chosen to blame for their problems they’ll never change. It’s not an instant fix, but a vote of Deal v Remain, whatever the result is tolerable for most people.

I’m an dyed in the wool remainer, but if I ‘lost’ a real world deal v remain ref, I’d accept it, I’d live with it, and I’d move on.

I think it’s the only way for the UK to heal from this, it’s the only way the UK political system can survive this and it’s the only way to move forward.

Even if we leave on May’s deal, which, as above, is tolerable, Reaminers like me will always blame it whenever things go wrong and the ERG / Momentum types will always do the same.

…and just raise tensions on the “will of the people” still further.

Every single option beyond Friday will result in this. Farage is out there saying that even the tiny delay ’till middle of next month is a betrayal, and that the Withdrawal Agreement does not reflect the will of the people… etc. Anything that happens now will be painted as “undemocratic” and “not what people voted for” whether we have further public votes or not.

fantasy cake

mmm, cake

popped out for a bike ride (well couriering some stuff for work) only tok about 90 mins in the time I was away MV3 was on, off then on again, but maybe later in the week

a few years ago this level of dysfunction would have been shocking

now, its just a regular day in Carry On Up The Brexit

From the Guardian: ” In it, she [May] says she cannot commit to accept the result of anything decided in indicative votes.

She says no MP can commit to accepting something that contradicts the manifesto on which they were elected.”

She has also ruled out no deal if Parliment is still agianst it.

So it seems to me the only optiosn as it stands is her deal or a general election. Of course sh’e probably changed her mind already

Of course sh’e probably changed her mind already

That’s why her name isn’t Theresa Will

She says no MP can commit to accepting something that contradicts the manifesto on which they were elected.”

There is one born every minute, it’s almost Homer Simpson like in the “It’s my first day” that one… I’m sure there are a list of things in manifesto’s she has gone back on, or does not trying to do it not count?

In other news: Darren Grimes, youth face of Leave caught up in election controversy for being a very naughty boy with his campaigning, unwittingly thinks Schengen is brilliant when he tweeted about breezing into Switzerland.

Just crossed the border from Italy into Switzerland, not a bother, it’s almost like it doesn’t have to be. Somehow. It’s almost like it’s not beyond the wit of man.

You know, Schengen, the whole principle of freedom of movement you pushed people to vote to remove?

Either trolling or thick as two bricks. Not sure which at this point in time.

You know, Schengen, the whole principle of freedom of movement you pushed people to vote against?

Either trolling or thick as two bricks. Not sure which at this point in time.

Ah so that is how we fix the NI Border we join Schengen

Ah so that is how we fix the NI Border we join Schengen

Someone let Theresa know!

That’s unwitting genius.

At the same time, we could do some sort of useful trade deal with this region of no border checks.

If we have a general election, won’t we just be faced with the same choice as last time. 2 parties of useless self-serving muppets, both of whom seek to deliver some fantasy cake-and-eat-it Brexit?

Unless something massive changes the two major parties at the moment would only offer May’s Brexit (which is at least ‘real’) and Corbyn’s which the EU hasn’t agreed, fun times.

My Local MP Anna McMorrin has been saying and doing some good things for the Remain camp, but North Cardiff voted with a higher % of remain voters than London, so it’s to be expected.

I would love a massive change and the Indies / Lib Dems to make massive in-roads, but the last that seemed likely it didn’t really come to pass and cost them dearly.

Interesting read regarding the legalities around “crashing out” etc…

Extending Article 50: Separating myth and legal reality

Theresa May, hypocrite, today:

“No government could give a blank cheque to commit to an outcome without knowing what it is.”

Such as for instance committing to do some sort of Brexit and triggering A50, without knowing what sort of Brexit will happen, because you haven’t agreed what the Brexit deal is with Europe?

Oooofff… Tory MP on PM (Radio4) saying that it is not for parliament to decide how we Leave… and she’ll vote against any proposal on how we Leave except for No Deal… as that is the Will Of The People.

Except the EU very clearly stated that they would not entertain any negotiations until A50 was triggered. So how could anyone know what the deal was beforehand?

Seems neither side is above making stuff up to suit an agenda.

@kelvin wtf? She’s a bit late, Boris already dropped that bombshell the morning after.

Except the EU very clearly stated that they would not entertain any negotiations until A50 was triggered.

We needed a UK plan/position before we started negotiating. Surely it must be clear to everyone why by now? Yes, the EU would say no… but only if “we” ignored the advice of our diplomats and those in our civil service who said, quite clearly, from the start, what the trade offs would be, and what the EU position, based on its known laws and rules, would be.

wtf?

I don’t know. As an MP she is choosing her preferred way of Leaving, and voting accordingly, but it’s not for MPs to decide, according to her.

Except the EU very clearly stated that they would not entertain any negotiations until A50 was triggered. So how could anyone know what the deal was beforehand?

The sticking point has been getting the ‘deal’ past parliament, not the EU. Might’ve been prudent to sort that out before even bothering wasting the EU’s time with a deal we don’t want ourselves, n’est-ce pas?

Having the first clue what Brexit would look like, before triggering A50, might indeed have been a good idea, as in “we will exit, if we can get yyy and zzz”. Maybe also some sort of option for “if we can’t get xxx, then we revoke A50”. Or even, just to satisfy the nutbags, “if we can get aaa, bbb, and ccc, but not ddd, then nuclear”. Who knows what crazy stuff they could have dreamed up, argued about, and agreed on before all this last minute headless chicken act came to be.

The EU might not have officially “entertained negotiations” but I’d bet there would be some senior figures who would have been willing to at least suggest the likely acceptable outcomes.

But what we had was no plan at all. None, nada, zip, squat, FA. Which was, frankly, lunacy. And here we are. With headless chickens in charge.

Absolutely, but that’s not what…

Such as for instance committing to do some sort of Brexit and triggering A50, without knowing what sort of Brexit will happen, because you haven’t agreed what the Brexit deal is with Europe?

… was saying.

D, A & F selected.

Amendment D: Jeremy Corbyn
Calls on government to make time this week to find a majority for a different approach

Amendment A: Sir Oliver Letwin
Takes control of parliamentary timetable on Weds 27th to debate and vote on alternative ways forward

Amendment F: Margaret Beckett
Orders that MPs be given time to vote on whether to leave EU with no deal or to seek an extension, if we get within 7 days of leaving the EU without a deal being passed

So, official opposition amendment a total waste of time… when the Letwin version was briefed well in advance, and has an actual clear step to take. More vague postering. Some good and useful Labour back bench (and other opposition party) amendments lost out.

You’re right, it’s not, and I apologise for incorrectly wording my half assed anti MayBot rant.

Except the EU very clearly stated that they would not entertain any negotiations until A50 was triggered. So how could anyone know what the deal was beforehand?

Well for a start they could have come up with a position that was compatible with the rules of the eu and agreed that before triggering. A starting position for negotiation could have been agreed by parliament

Very good to see the must leave not selected.

You’re right, it’s not, and I apologise for incorrectly wording my half assed anti MayBot rant.

Yeah, likewise sorry for casting aspersions.

Well for a start they could have come up with a position that was compatible with the rules of the eu and agreed that before triggering. A starting position for negotiation could have been agreed by parliament

Mike, you’re late, it’s all over. We know. 😉

@squirrelking

Except the EU very clearly stated that they would not entertain any negotiations until A50 was triggered. So how could anyone know what the deal was beforehand?

Seems neither side is above making stuff up to suit an agenda.

Waaat?

The EU said quite clearly that they wouldn’t split the 4 freedoms, they offered us any of the existing deals they have with third countries, but we couldn’t split the 4 freedoms.

That May kept up the brexiteets campaign fantasy that we somehow could was always setting her & the UK up for a fall.

She says no MP can commit to accepting something that contradicts the manifesto on which they were elected.”

Not strictly true. May’s own Dementia Tax was quietly dropped after the election in June ’17. Fans of historical Trafalgar Sq fisticuffs will also note that the Poll Tax manifesto pledge was similarly dropped once it proved to be a guaranteed vote loser.

Mike, you’re late, it’s all over. We know

The perils of posting from the train..

Waaat?

The EU said quite clearly that they wouldn’t split the 4 freedoms, they offered us any of the existing deals they have with third countries, but we couldn’t split the 4 freedoms.

That May kept up the brexiteets campaign fantasy that we somehow could was always setting her & the UK up for a fall.

@kimbers, they stated quite clearly after the referendum that they would not negotiate or discuss anything until Article 50 had been triggered.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/03/eu-commission-still-refuses-uk-talks-before-article-50-triggered

You are arguing about something else entirely that nobody has brought up.

Mike – yeah, sometimes the cache is a bit slow.