Its just deluded.

The EU have bent over backwards to help May and the tories and gone a lot further than I thought they would.  They have stated quite clearly that this is as good a deal as May will get. But these numpties who couldn’t negotiate their way out of a paper bag still think a better deal is possible?

Unbelievable.

I saw a tweet yesterday from an 18 year old complaining that they never had a chance to vote and they’ll have to live with this decision for many years to come, they just wanted the same non-restrictive opportunities as the last generation had had, a retired Brexiter was quick to respond, telling them to stop whining and make the best of it, people died in two wars to give us this chance.

I can see both arguments (just) but also the new kind of deep set divisionism that Brexit has given us.

The modern world has given us amazing technology, education and health benefits among many others, but has humanity grown at the same rate?

For all our nice trinkets, learnt intelligence, and extended life spans we may as well be living in ‘effing caves when it come’s to achieving real progress.I’d like to see a world when that’s not the case but it’ll be many many years past my life time.

The post doesn’t fit with the overall theme of the thread, someone did touch upon this earlier on, it’s just my overall take away from the bloody mess. I’m screwed if I can see a way out that won’t leave us without another deep division between two sets of people. Yay for us.

“While I agree the country has always been full of uneducated racists (not many countries aren’t) there are 2 million in the middle that have had time to consider, worked out that we may actually need immigration, the EU does actually deliver stuff etc,.”

I know of quite a few people who would change their vote from Leave to Remain if they were given the opportunity!  People from all walks of life.  A small group in a factory I deliver to are shocked that half their co-workers have left to go back to their home country (Poland mainly) and that no-one from the UK has come in to replace them.  Others that work in EU-funded departments genuinely didn’t grasp the fact that their job would disappear so voted to leave.  Add in:

“I saw a tweet yesterday from an 18 year old complaining that they never had a chance to vote and they’ll have to live with this decision for many years to come, they just wanted the same non-restrictive opportunities as the last generation had had, a retired Brexiter was quick to respond, telling them to stop whining and make the best of it, people died in two wars to give us this chance.”

and you have another million or so young people who can vote with a dwindling retired voting group who no longer can.  Put this all together and I’d be amazed if there wasn’t a swing to at least 60/40 towards remaining.  The vested interests of the media not losing face and changing their stance is drowning out a lot of the stories about people changing their mind, it’s hard to see past those shouting the loudest and getting the real picture.

I saw a tweet yesterday from an 18 year old complaining that they never had a chance to vote and they’ll have to live with this decision for many years to come, they just wanted the same non-restrictive opportunities as the last generation had had, a retired Brexiter was quick to respond, telling them to stop whining and make the best of it, people died in two wars to give us this chance.

That retiree just believes the nationalistic propaganda of war, rather than understanding the reality of history. European integration has honoured those who fought and died by bringing peace and understanding, allowing people to travel freely and understand our neighbours cultures. It is the small minded isolationists who disgrace the sacrifices made during the war.

And I think that half the problem now is that most of those who bang on about the sacrifices made, didn’t actually live through the war, they didn’t experience it, they learned about it from post war comic books and Hollywood movies extolling glory and heroism while whitewashing the real suffering and fear. Those that lived it, took us into Europe for a reason, that the poppy mafia now ignore.

The modern world has given us amazing technology, education and health benefits among many others, but has humanity grown at the same rate?

What we seem unable to grasp is that nations are a human construct. Like race, gender, religion we use a definition to make us feel safe and that we belong.

Hell look at the fact one very small island has factions that would rather it split into smaller and smaller tribes competing with each other rather than working together.

the EU was created out of the ashes of Europe after nations tore each other apart but it seems we are not advanced enough to realise someone from 100 miles away is not actually some alien completely unlike us…

as a species we are **** stupid

 a retired Brexiter was quick to respond, telling them to stop whining and make the best of it, people died in two wars to give us this chance.

Ironic that fighting nationalism, racism and intolerance can be turned around so much. That is the sort of delusion we are up against.

Many of the good people out there who gave their lives would not like being used in that way.

Raab pushing the bullying line again, is depressing & effective

A lot of people repeating that one, never mind that we chose to leave & the bullying is the EU telling us we can’t keep the benefits of membership after we leave. That the Brexiters been pretending there are no benefits, doesn’t seem to concern the gullible.

 a retired Brexiter was quick to respond, telling them to stop whining and make the best of it, people died in two wars to give us this chance.

I suppose that’s what the Polish pilots in the Battle Of Britain were fighting for, then. So that in the future, the English could tell their descendants who come here to work, to get out of the country…

As soon as anyone mentions Churchill can you please share this.

History

And I think that half the problem now is that most of those who bang on about the sacrifices made, didn’t actually live through the war, they didn’t experience it, they learned about it from post war comic books and Hollywood movies extolling glory and heroism while whitewashing the real suffering and fear. Those that lived it, took us into Europe for a reason, that the poppy mafia now ignore.

I think your on to something,the old people I’ve met that bang on about this wouldn’t actually have been old enough to fight.

I think your on to something,the old people I’ve met that bang on about this wouldn’t actually have been old enough to fight.

Well if you were born at the end of the war then you are 72 at the moment, born at the start you are 79…. some people probably need reminding

My 80+ yr old parents remember the war and are ardent europhiles

As an example of the weird, twisted worldview of English people of a certain age, ethnicity and culturality, my father fought in the second half in North Africa and Italy. Churchill worshipper, Anti Semite and xenophobic lower-middle-class Daily Express reader. Hated Trade Unionists and the (then) new post-war entrepreneurs (“spivs ”) in equal measure.

Despised the American forces whilst admiring the Germans.

Despite all that has happened since 1945, this kernel of dim, warped poison is still the heart of England.

And it keeps getting better.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/nadie-dorries-slams-brexit-deal-leave-remain-jk-rowling-a8639216.html

What did she think “Leave” meant?

And it keeps getting better.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/nadie-dorries-slams-brexit-deal-leave-remain-jk-rowling-a8639216.html

What did she think “Leave” meant?

Ha I was going to post this the other day but figured there are things and levels of absolute stupidity that need a new word inventing to describe them….

The Andrew Marr show was worth watching today, the Rabb interview and the snap at Shami Chakrabarti.
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One day I will wake up & this whole episode will have just been a warped dream……

Corbyn says that a second referendum is an option in the future but not today.

Is tomorrow OK?

Corbyn also saying he hasn’t read the whole document yet. WTF ?

Corbyn says that a second referendum is an option in the future but not today.

He was never behind a second referendum, they reluctantly included the possibility of the second referendum to stop conference from forcing it into being primary policy. Anyone still dreaming that Corbyn actually wants a second ref has been outflanked, in a manoeuvre so obvious the blind could see it.

I suppose that’s what the Polish pilots in the Battle Of Britain were fighting for, then. So that in the future, the English could tell their descendants who come here to work, to get out of the country…

I used to think that this was just disingenuous historical revisionism by people with an agenda, but what the last few weeks in particular, and the last three years more generally, have illustrated is the truly staggering levels of ignorance with this right wing imbecilles.

We’ve had a Brexit secretary openly say he didn’t realise how dependent we were on our ports, and a Northern Ireeland secratery who wasn’t aware that Northern Irish voters voted on sectarian lines. Do you think they know about the Polish Battle of Britain pilots?

I’ll post this link up again from the Irish Times. Worth a read if you’ve not read it all ready. And a fair assessment of the quality of MPs we’ve got

Brexit shows idiots and incompetents are in charge in the UK

jusr read the I article, wtf are these people on?

Nadine Morris?

I have no words…….

Moronic maybe?

Un-fing-real…..

And to think that Nadine Dorries has complained that people call her thick. How anyone could ever put an x in a box and actually want her to represent them is nuts.

That retiree just believes the nationalistic propaganda of war, rather than understanding the reality of history. European integration has honoured those who fought and died by bringing peace and understanding, allowing people to travel freely and understand our neighbours cultures. It is the small minded isolationists who disgrace the sacrifices made during the war.

And I think that half the problem now is that most of those who bang on about the sacrifices made, didn’t actually live through the war, they didn’t experience it, they learned about it from post war comic books and Hollywood movies extolling glory and heroism while whitewashing the real suffering and fear. Those that lived it, took us into Europe for a reason, that the poppy mafia now ignore.

Nails it.

A small group in a factory I deliver to are shocked that half their co-workers have left to go back to their home country (Poland mainly) and that no-one from the UK has come in to replace them.

They did. They grabbed a free coffee during the induction morning then got the doc to sign them off with stress/bad back in their lunch break.

The simple fact there’s been no war in Europe should be enough evidence..

War has been replaced with economic/diplomatic wrangling and is how it should be..

Europe is really very novel in this respect.. Something like this, this international cooperation has never been achieved in human history.

And that’s not even starting on human rights, environmental laws, animal rights etc.

The EU is the most modern model of international cooperation in history.

Is it perfect? Absolutely not. But it’s been designed from the ground up for the members to make corrections with general consensus. And that’s critical. It can, has, and does evolve.

Not other political construct in history has been so democratic and colaberative…

Very good post mattyfez. My thoughts entirely.

Speaking to a 99 yr old who did fight in WW2 (pilot) and was pro brexit.  Didn’t like the Germans telling us what to do.

The Andrew Marr show was worth watching today, the Rabb interview and the snap at Shami Chakrabarti.
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What’s great about this whole shambles, is that there now seems to be an increasingly vocal minority of politicians and journalists who are going full-Paxman with the bullshitters. I never thought I’d see the day when even Adam Boulton seemed to have an angry gravitas about him.

Certain people are now openly calling it a farce, so that’s something. It’s just a shame it took so long.

And to think that Nadine Dorries has complained that people call her thick. How anyone could ever put an x in a box and actually want her to represent them is nuts.

They don’t vote for the person, they vote for the party they want in government.  You could put a cabbage up as MP for the tory party where I live and it would still win.

Speaking to a 99 yr old who did fight in WW2 (pilot) and was pro brexit.  Didn’t like the Germans telling us what to do.

So a 99 year old who doesn’t believe in his country, The “patriotism” of these brexiteers is astounding, no faith whatsoever in the UK, and yet they believe that a country that can’t negotiate within a “friendly” community can negotiate in the real world.

But the one word that describes the Brexiteers more than anything is ‘Delusional’

The truly terrifying thing is that as it all unravels they seem to be becoming more so, not less. Doubling down on this insane fantasy of a return to Empire

But the one word that describes the Brexiteers more than anything is ‘Delusional’

The truly terrifying thing is that as it all unravels they seem to be becoming more so, not less. Doubling down on this insane fantasy of a return to Empire

Everything they have been taught and believe is failing to come true. It is hard for people to grasp that they were lied to and that thief life outlook is wrong. It’s easier to blame the world….

Nadine Dorries should be happy if people stop at just calling her thick.

I would use probably the only word that, under normal circumstances, I would never use towards a woman. The one that hints at someone who you will meet on the forthcoming Tuesday.

I wake up every day thinking about Breshit, and go to sleep thinking about Breshit. As the day goes on, it makes me feel angrier and angrier. Now my wife has just said maybe we should think about stocking up on a few things, and my 15 yr old daughter is genuinely scarred by it all. I feel helpless. I hate feeling helpless. I hate the feeling we are all just banging our heads against a wall. I hate the fact that some friends, family, and neighbours are narrow minded, bigots and it didn’t take much of a prod to expose this. I hate it all.

^ *like*

Though actually I’m still pretty confident about brexit not happening, it’s still shit watching this slow-motion car-crash happening all around us. There’s little comfort in being right when everyone else is wrong.

Well I suggest you put that in a letter to your MP and the PM (though best not put a name on that one just in case – call it the Australian way)

Not a ‘Brexiteer’, but I don’t understand this adulation of our fellow EU members attitude and the downer on the UK. None of us are perfect.

Has anyone noticed, for example, the Polish and Hungarian attitude to immigrants and asylum seekers? They are worse than us.

So we have Poland and Hungary telling the UK that we have to accept the self selecting immigrants from their country, and that it is a good thing for the UK, but they won’t co-operate with the EU’s plan to distribute refugees as it is a bad thing.

As for immigration into Poland from outside the EU of anyone with a brown face……….

https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-migration-crisis-italy-spain-rebels-bulgaria-dublin-quotas-proposal/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/02/poles-dont-want-immigrants-they-dont-understand-them-dont-like-them

I think we all have a lot to learn.

Oh I’ve not only written to my MP but spoken to him too, though since he’s the govt chief whip I don’t expect him to take much notice.