Viewing 40 posts - 53,201 through 53,240 (of 77,140 total)
  • EU Referendum – are you in or out?
  • el_boufador
    Full Member

    Any party that unleashes a hard brexit within a couple of years maybe months has just destroyed that party due to the pain unleashed. So neither will.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    Labour Brexit does not restore calm.

    Corbyn will not allow a Labour government to be the ones to stop Brexit.

    I’m not voting for Labour again with a vague nod and an wink from a Eurosceptic promising something he thinks is better than the current mess over Brexit.

    No point swapping one dead end for another.

    el_boufador
    Full Member

    Any brexit close to the status quo does, for most people, whoever it’s delivered by.

    As a remainer Idon’t think the TM deal is bad in that context.

    It’s either the TM deal, conservatives get even softer (gove) or labour soft /remain

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    kelvin
    Full Member

    Any party that unleashes a hard brexit

    Labour whipped for triggering of A50 without a plan to avoid hard Brexit.

    Labour whipped for a bill that makes a no deal the default way of exiting.

    Labour whipped against an amendment for staying in the Single Market.

    Labour whipped against an amendment for staying in the Customs Union.

    Labour has made a hard Brexit the only outcome now.

    Unless Brexit is stopped.

    El-bent
    Free Member

     Much of the predicament of may is due to the slim majority she has and the divisions within her own party.

    Much of her predicament is caused by her own doing. “So hows brexit going?” OK, but we can’t tell you the details, because its a secret.” While remainers knew what was going to happen, while brexiters screamed “project fear!” at them, she and her cohorts including the media kept the reality of brexit from those far less informed because of what we are seeing now, she kicked the can down the road for the last two years.

    Well now reality has broken out.

    As for the Corbynistas present, his actions speak louder than words. The torys may be bringing the country down, but labour has also seriously contributed to this by simply not being an opposition party.

    The actions of both party’s should not be forgiven or forgotten once this mess is cleared up.

    tomd
    Free Member

    Interesting that the Daily Mail is now leading with bashing Mogg and the ERG headbangers. <i>”Fury at preening tory saboteurs”</i>. My local MP (Simon Clark) and Mogg-lite gets an honourable mention as one of those putting in a letter. I can’t quite see how this will go but it looks like the heavyweights are backing May.

    I think for my local MP it’s about making a career for himself. He’ s a tory representing a marginal seat with a huge Brexit majority. He can see that by going all in for the hard Brexit he boosts his local support. Either way he wins. If he gets a hard full on mental Brexit he gets to claim credit locally. If it all goes wrong he can stand as an independent claiming that he stood firm for his constituents. The flaw in the whole plan is if the whole thing crashes the economy into recession then who knows. Nobody voted to get poorer.

    DrJ
    Full Member

    so no quotes from him stating he wants a hard brexit.

    No, but the same old Life Of Brian picture. You can’t accuse binners of being inconsistent.

    kerley
    Free Member

    May is mentioning No Brexit, Barnier is mentioning No Brexit, Labour six tests pretty much mean no Brexit as no deal with ever meet the 6 six tests and a No Deal will absolutely not meet the six tests.

    If we don’t have a deal that gets voted through then the parliament can vote on No Brexit as the only option (with the 30 or so ERG people voting against No Brexit and favouring a crash out)

    Now, what are the odds on a No Brexit?

    Ewan
    Free Member

    https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/

    Every piece of fake EU news since 1992

    cchris2lou
    Full Member

    Corbyn and Labour also want their cake and eat it. As May found out it won’t work with EU

    el_boufador
    Full Member

    Regarding default position being hard brexit technically yes I agree that is true. However I feel strongly that that wold firstly be in nobodys interests (EU/uk) and also is not implementable by either side due to lack of preparation. Any delays etc. And brexit date will just get deferred.

    Therefore exteme low chance of  happening. In that respect I guess the brexiters were right.

    It’s a gigantic bluff call. Both sides are bluffing.

    The only ways I can see a hard brexit happening are 1) one of the erg twunts gets the helm (as above I think they are happy to sling shit from the sidelines as it abicates them of responsibility)

    Or  2) 2nd ref outcome is hard brexit. That’s risk isis w I have mixed views about a 2nd ref.

    Just my opinions

    mrmo
    Free Member

    Now, what are the odds on a No Brexit?

    Remember at the end of March, we crash out if nothing is done to avoid it happening. The default position we are now in is crash out.

    Giving time to allow ratification by 27countries, if the deal is not done very soon there will be no time to ratify and we are then left two clear choices. Crash and burn or revoke A50.

    Time is working in favour of the ERG.

    kerley
    Free Member

    Crash and burn or revoke A50.

    And given those 2 choices which do you see the majority of parliament going for?

    The EU would welcome a50 revoke and not put up a single blocker.

    mrmo
    Free Member

    And given those 2 choices which do you see the majority of parliament going for?

    You assume parliament being asked to vote. It comes down to whether enough in parliament can force a vote in defiance of the executive.

    mrmo
    Free Member

    I am hopeful that revocation is the outcome, but not complacent enough to believe it will happen. I haven’t seen much to make believe that MPs are worth the money.

    thecaptain
    Free Member

    TJ,

    Corbyn has consistently whipped the party against all the “soft” options that were put forward. He has ruled out freedom of movement.

    With this “red line” there is no such thing as a “soft as it can be brexit”

    thecaptain
    Free Member

    Revocation is certainly odds-on but that’s like saying my brakes will probably work if I race full speed towards a cliff edge and pull the levers 2 secs before reaching it. I’d prefer to have a higher certainty before taking the risk.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    So non of you actually have any quotes from Corbyn saying he wants a hard brexit.  Just the usual made up nonsense.  some of that whipping was ill advised, some of it was intended to back May into a corner, some was for political advantage

    On a related topic Starmer spent a fair bit of time yesterday doing the chat shows to get the labour positio across.  How much reporting of that was there?

    thecaptain
    Free Member

    TJ, do you seriously dispute that he has ruled out freedom of movement?

    That’s your hard brexit right there.

    piemonster
    Full Member

    Actions speak louder than words TJ

    kerley
    Free Member

    I’d prefer to have a higher certainty before taking the risk.

    So would I and many others but you have to go through the motions and try to get a deal even in the knowledge that a deal is never going to get through.  That has to go to the last minute to make it credible that a deal was sought.  The job then is for the party to spin it (EUs fault) to limit their own damage but it may be too late for that!

    BruceWee
    Full Member

    Sorry TJ, but he’s a hard brexiteer.  The votes and the statements against FOM can only be read one way.

    PrinceJohn
    Full Member

    Corbyn never got behind the remain campaign & never really argued either way, he’s sat on the sidelines throughout.

    I do think he’s good at what he does, in terms of his arguments & how he conducts himself. However I always got the impression he wanted Brexit.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    You guys are so funny

    Corbyn campaigned hard for remain.  He spoke at more public meetings to more people than any other remain campaigner.  He has been consistent in his approach throughout that a hard brexit would be hugely damaging but you all prefer to infer utter nonsense about his position from very limited info, refuse to see the political compromises he had to make to try tokeep a badly divided party together and believe the anti corbyn propaganda in the press.

    Its laughable.

    thecaptain
    Free Member

    a hard brexit would be hugely damaging

    He has ruled out freedom of movement.

    That’s hard brexit.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    The votes and the statements against FOM can only be read one way.

    They clearly can be read multiple ways since that’s what’s happening here.  Poor argument.  For a change I actually side with TJ here.  I think the anticorbs are seeing what they want to see more so than the procorbs.

    thecaptain
    Free Member

    First google hit for me

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/24/labour-vows-to-rip-up-and-rethink-brexit-white-paper

    “freedom of movement will have to end, the shadow Brexit secretary has said.”

    BruceWee
    Full Member

    They clearly can be read multiple ways since that’s what’s happening here.

    OK, what’s your read on his support for ending FOM?

    Ben_H
    Full Member

    Looks like the 48 letters are in – and whips are being told to get MPs to the Common today (they’d usually have constituency business on Fridays).

    We could be in for an interesting day!

    bikebouy
    Free Member

    Anyone else resigned in the last 15mins 🤣

    MSP
    Full Member

    I really don’t see how his history of whipping the party on brexit votes can be read in any other way than what actually happened.

    Ben_H
    Full Member

    Seems unimaginable that Gove will stay…and the moment he goes, things get almost impossible for May.

    BaronVonP7
    Free Member

    Breakfast TV this morning: Vox pop of folk in Bolton – most seemed to voice considered opinions.

    Then on comes what I think was a Labour MP and seems to suggest that they can win an election and renegotiate the brexit deal in four months. I may have misunderstood.

    Unicorns! Unicorns EVERYWHERE!

    dazh
    Full Member

    Its laughable.

    Totally agree. The cult of anti-Corbynism is a powerful thing. The more I read and hear from his critics the more I think they are far more obsessed by him than his supposed acolytes. It really is an interesting phenomenon. For my own part I’m genuinely bemused at why such an unimposing, inoffensive and quite frankly boring personality stirs such passions.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    I think the anticorbs are seeing what they want to see more so than the procorbs.

    This is bollocks. I voted for Labour for the first time at the last election because of Corbyn and his transformation of Labour policy on domestic issues so that it much closer matches what Labour members want. What I WANT TO SEE is Corbyn dropping his support for Brexit and saying that if we got a Labour government that it would offer us the chance to vote to stop it. And, in the meantime, that in opposition, Labour support a public vote to stop it.

    el_boufador
    Full Member

    Whatever labour said in 2017 is irrelevant just as TMS red lines are irrelevant.

    welshfarmer
    Full Member

    “End freedom of movement”. What exactly does that mean?

    I am pretty sure that with some modified legislation, and a whole load of spin, we could quite easily of put an end to “Freedom of Movement” (in the sense that most DailyFail readers understand it), whilst remaining fully paid up members of the EU! All it needed was the political will to do so.

    MrWoppit
    Free Member

    For my own part I’m genuinely bemused at why such an unimposing, inoffensive and quite frankly boring personality stirs such passions.

    Because, as I understand it, he is an ineffectual and indeed, largely absent, opposition ‘leader’ in the current situation, a disingenuous disguiser of his true political position (judged by comparing his political stance of 95% of his career against what he now claims to espouse) and is a creature of the entryist ‘Momentum’ organisation rather than of the Labour Party.

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    Gove is deciding if he brings it all down at the moment.

    Though to sum stuff up my mother came out with the gem that Mogg as PM would be better than Corbyn as he will take away all the assets and give them to poor people…..

    Not sure at which point critical thinking was lost on educated people.

    dazh
    Full Member

    Corbyn dropping his support for Brexit and saying that if we got a Labour government that it would offer us the chance to vote to stop it.

    And therein lies the problem. At this point in time, any party that goes against the result of the referendum will never be in government. What he is on record as saying and what he has stated repeatedly is that he wants to stop a no deal brexit, either through an election, or if that fails a new referendum. I don’t know why people struggle with understanding that.

Viewing 40 posts - 53,201 through 53,240 (of 77,140 total)

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