If you could choose between actual socialist utopia outside the EU, and neoliberal toryism inside it, which would you go for?

Different versions of mixed ecomony possible inside and out.

Molls – to me the nightmare scenario is a no deal Brexit, which inevitably leads to the fall of the government, then Corbyn getting in and setting about his freedom from EU rules to renationalise everything.

I truly believe this is what he thinks is going to happen. That this is ‘The Plan’. Hence his relaxed attitude to Brexit. He’s loving this! A hard/no deal Berxit is all his dreams come true.

But if it pans out like that, imagine how fast businesses will run for the exits? We’ll be a third world country within 5 years. We’d make Greece’s troubles since the Euro-crisis look like an economic success story in comparison.

Doesn’t sound much like any type of Utopia really, does it?

If you could choose between actual socialist utopia outside the EU

This for sure as you described it as a utopia!

Well since neither a socialist nor capitalist utopia can exist, both being flawed systems, we need to keep muddling along with compromise.

Meanwhile Ken Clarke in PMQs:

He says “we must re-establish parliamentary sovereignty” and wishes the PM well in achieving a majority for “some course of action in future which is in the national interest”.

Molls – to me the nightmare scenario is a no deal Brexit, which inevitably leads to the fall of the government, then Corbyn getting in and setting about his freedom from EU rules to renationalise everything.

Worse than a no deal brexit with Boris or Mogg as pm? Still cant see Corbyn winning an election.

Do we know what we are debating yet?

Dammit Molgrips! That’s the sort of hard moral question that is ruining this place!

Would a true socialist utopia _need_ external trading partners? Could that even exist in the absence of trade deals where other parties are out for personal gain?

The only reason Theresa May isn’t long gone is that most people can see that either a Corbyn government or a  Tory one lead by some Hard Right headbanger, post-brexit, would be an absolutely unimaginable catastrophe

She’s the least worst option

Just have a think about that for a minute. Thats how totally ****ed we now are!!

“most people” have absolutely no say in the length of Mays tenure.

Yes but most Tory MPs have absolutely no wish to see the Boris or Rees Mogg premiership that their batty old membership would deliver. Just as most labour MPs don’t want the’ leadership’ that their Momentum 6th formers have delivered them

The only reason Theresa May isn’t long gone is that most people can see that either a Corbyn government or a  Tory one lead by some Hard Right headbanger, post-brexit, would be an absolutely unimaginable catastrophe

I’m not so sure, there’s an inertia involved. Last G.E wasn’t that long ago – it largely depends on what happens in the next couple of months I would say.

Do we know what we are debating yet?

What Zippy said – what does tickle me is so many people on here reacting to media speculation regarding the deal. Opposition politicians calling it a bad deal without even seeing or having time to reflect and put a considered opinion together on it .. Just shows that unchecked media rhetoric appeals to both sides or who’s argument it suits and I’m saddened by that.

It was obvious before and during the folly of negotiation that the deal on offer wouldn’t be better than the one we had, but it will be better than No deal .. Id like to see it and review it carefully  of course but personally would like to see us all move towards an end to this and try to heal some of the divisions within the country . once its done we can all get on with what we have . don’t believe in a peoples vote on it either as it will further divide and weaken the country.

Shoot me down if you wish but i’ve had enough uncertainty

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@makkag

this

It was obvious before and during the folly of negotiation that the deal on offer wouldn’t be better than the one we had

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would like to see us all move towards an end to this and try to heal some of the divisions within the country

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I cant see how any divisions will be healed as we are taking a route that damages the country……
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@makkag

You seem to be living in a staggering, unicorn filled alternate reality where you believe Brexiters can be reconciled with.

Asking reasonable behaviour of the unreasonable is an exercise in futility, with a sprinkling of fairy dust insanity.

You’ll end up rationalising the behaviour of nutters. You give them an inch and they go for a land grab of a country.

Have a look at some European history.

Most of it, in fact.

My question was purely hypothetical.  Let me rephrase, since it’s ambiguous depending on your interpretation of ‘utopia’.

Would you rather have a liberal left wing social democracy, along the lines of the post-war Labour govt with lots of nationalisation and a social agenda but modernised (since I think that’s what Corbs would like) OR the status quo within the EU.

And yes, I know socialism and the EU can co-exist, I’m talking about what you would like to see starting where we are e.g. requiring lots of borrowing to renationalise. And I’m not talking about Corbyn specifically, but I guess I am talking about a Corbynite style of socialism.

This new forums crap !!

My view is on the whole is the majority of people will have little choice but to get on with it and make the best of what happens , That will go some way to healing divisions just because there is no other option than to get on with it.

Sure there will remain some bad sentiment/resentment through individuals for some time to come but Time really is a great healer and I think that very few want to lie on our deathbed and say/think.. see I told you you were wrong about Brexit whatever side they were on.

Just my 2p’s worth

“along the lines of the post-war Labour govt ”

What you’re suggesting never existed.

We were stony broke. It wasn’t a time of socialist unicorns and honey. It was, in fact a bit S41t.

Nationalisation was often to shore up badly run industries (run by private companies,mind).

Your missing off the “Empire” bit, as well. It was reducing in size but was still there.

I’ll back your socialist utopia if you show me a future, not a past that never existed. I promise.

@makkag

It won’t heal anything.

Look back to 1975, the first referendum – massive “remain” vote. Did the brexiters “get on with it?” Did they chuff.

I applaud your motivation but query the pragmatism.

try to heal some of the divisions within the country

How the hell are you going to do that?

If no-deal trashes the economy, then people will suffer, and suffering people will need people to blame – the EU, the Tories, each other, whatever.

If any deal is perceived as BINO, and we still slide economically, people will suffer and blame the EU or the Tories or each other.

If we remain or we BINO and do ok economically, brexiteers will be bitter and angry just the same.

We cannot simply heal these divisions with a decision on Brexit.  The only way is to make people feel secure, happy and prosperous.  Neoliberalism cannot do that, ever – competition is an intrinsic aspect of it, and whenever there’s competition there are losers.   Only social democracy can begin to improve life for everyone and bring security to the majority.  Only then will progress be made.

We were stony broke. It wasn’t a time of socialist unicorns and honey. It was, in fact a bit S41t.

Of course I know this.  Not least because we’d just had a massive war.  I’m talking about what it *aimed* to do.

@Barron

Not old enough nor qualified enough on the subject matter to compare or pass a view on the 75 ref i’m afraid

Very interested in hearing your views on how you would play the current cards though as i think i have a enough knowledge to debate that.

Forgive me if detailed in the thread previously but its getting rather big now !

I think this thread is Singletrack’s attempt at “deep learning” – gather enough guff about Brexit and the thread will spontaneously design a Fat Bike to take us to the sunny uplands of in Europe/out Europe harmony.

I don’t think the divisions can be healed but the issues that caused them mitigated – fair distribution of wealth (the end of the “wealth creators” myth), a home people can afford to live in and know they will die in, less cack infrastructure for everyone not in SE)…

All aspirations of Corbyn; but the corn would be cut down before it ripens.

How about if Corbyn does a Volte-face (IMHO) and says:

“Labour’s keeping Britain in Europe. At the heart of Europe. We’re going to turn the politics of the continent a red colour and drive the European bus around the world with Britain in control; Germany paying for the petrol. No VW engines.”

I’d buy a dog and call it Engels, change my ringtone to the Internationale and be first in line to put a cross next to the red wizard’s name.

The populist parties of Europe have some (quasi) left leaning economic aspirations – end to austerity – more interventional help, socialist local governance, etc – sure they are nationalist, too – a sort of national socialism (joke) but a consensus builder might win the day.

With a continent of similar ideas, it reduces the chance that one country is picked off and made “an example of” by Global Corp. and Global Finance Brothers.

Molls – the main difference was that in the immediate aftermath of WW2 most commercial concerns didn’t have the option of just upping sticks and relocating to France, Germany or Singapore. They can now. As we’ll no doubt see over the next few years, whichever gang of numpties win the next election.

One thing the last 2 years has so graphically illustrated more than anything is the absolute rank incompetence, ignorance and economic illiteracy of our entire political class, of both colours. Idiots, the lot of them

Anyway… this would be appropriate

Just as most labour MPs don’t want the’ leadership’ that their Momentum 6th formers have delivered them

Give it a rest, would you? We all know you don’t like Corbyn, but your continual name-calling of his supporters is tedious. As I recall, you seemed to dislike it when I reminded you that you had done jack-all to oppose his election.

Ok Comrade.

Want to run us through your opinions on my assertion about what Corbyn really wants. I’ll repeat it for you. Genuinelly interested in what a true believer thinks?

To me the nightmare scenario is a no deal Brexit, which inevitably leads to the fall of the government, then Corbyn getting in and setting about his freedom from EU rules to renationalise everything.

I truly believe this is what he thinks is going to happen. That this is ‘The Plan’. Hence his relaxed attitude to Brexit. He’s loving this! A hard/no deal Berxit is all his dreams come true.

But if it pans out like that, imagine how fast businesses will run for the exits? We’ll be a third world country within 5 years. We’d make Greece’s troubles since the Euro-crisis look like an economic success story in comparison.

Doesn’t sound much like any type of Utopia really, does it?

Ok Comrade.

Want to run us through your opinions on my assertion about what Corbyn really wants. I’ll repeat it for you. Genuinelly interested in what a true believer thinks?

Why don’t you ask one?

Torygraph saying McVey & Morduant to resign

So lets get this straight – it sounds like the deal at the moment is still a loose membership of the EU, ie having to abide by the rules, but importantly having zero say in them.
Or no deal.

Well done. That’s really shown them…

The Labour party I do feel a bit sorry for, they are inbetween a rock & a hard place, a lot of remainers seem to forget that the vote wasn’t Tory or Labour, so if they make too much noise about supporting remain then half their voters will desert them, meanwhile they just sit & watch the Tory party implode.

Not sure what I would do in Jeremy’s shoes…

Torygraph saying McVey & Morduant to resign

Well at least if they do, instigating our descent into god-only-knows-what I’ll have made a few quid out of it. How very Tory of me. Odds were 5/1 and 4/1 respectively. Gove is at 13/1 so I could do with him doing the deceent thing too.

The country will miss having such principled intellectual heavyweights in governemnt.

Interestingly, I’ve just had a look and the odds of May going before the end of the day are down to 10/1.

Gove will do what Lady Macbeth (Sarah Vine) tells him to

I’d like to think I would speak the truth. Might lose my job but at least would be able to sleep at night knowing I’d tried.

I do appreciate the alternative argument, that there’s not much point having principles if you’re not in power. Problem is, this way round he’s been enabling the tories.

Problem is, this way round he’s been enabling the tories.

Yup – it really does need someone to say here are the cold facts, if we carry on with the half arsed poorly implemented Brexit then it’s going to ruin us, shall we stop the madness?

It really pisses me off that those responsible will come out the other side one way or the other still smiling & probably a darn sight richer while the normal person in the street is left to suffer. Asshats the lot of them.

Ok Comrade.

So your response to a comment about name calling is to double down on the name calling.

Thats special.

Depends on whether you regard ‘comrade’ as name calling, really, I suppose? I don’t personally. You should hear what I can come up with when I’m really, really cross.

Yet….. still not one of his disciples is actually pepared to comment on the points I made. Just pointed out that I should stop being horrid about Jeremy and his disciples.

And therein lies the whole problem.

Jeremy is right, because….. because… WELL HE JUST IS, ALRIGHT! Seems to be about the level of debate with the Corbynistas. Even whwn all evidence points to the contrary.

I mean… I get it. If you start thinking about it too hard you arrive at the inherent conatrdiction that your Messiah is actually a rabid brexiteer, so best not to think about it too much, eh?

Its absolutely beyond me how any of you are squaring this particularly, as for me that’d take a lot of mental gymnastics. Shall I repeat my point…..

to me the nightmare scenario is a no deal Brexit, which inevitably leads to the fall of the government, then Corbyn getting in and setting about his freedom from EU rules to renationalise everything.

I truly believe this is what he thinks is going to happen. That this is ‘The Plan’. Hence his relaxed attitude to Brexit. He’s loving this! A hard/no deal Berxit is all his dreams come true.

But if it pans out like that, imagine how fast businesses will run for the exits? We’ll be a third world country within 5 years. We’d make Greece’s troubles since the Euro-crisis look like an economic success story in comparison.

Doesn’t sound much like any type of Utopia really, does it?

Feel free to comment

I’m no Corbyn apologist but I would like to point out that by the time we get to a no deal brexit we are **** anyway and we might as well be run by the teletubbies for all the difference it would make.

I think we all need to re-set our dials about how bad this could get. We’re all still thinking about 29th March being some kind of endgame.

Its the opposite. Thats the very first day of the serious shit really starting. Its year zero. We need to bloody wake up and acknowledge this inconvenient fact

One thing the last 2 years has so graphically illustrated more than anything is the absolute rank incompetence, ignorance and economic illiteracy of our entire political class, of both colours. Idiots, the lot of them

No argument there.

But, re Corbyn, the point you are missing is that he is not a personal leader, in that he is not making the party do what he wants.  He is following what the party conference decided.  So whilst he might be in favour of Brexit, he has allowed the party’s official policy to be second ref, and remain as a distinct possibility.

That’s a very important point when the leader has the opposite point of view to the membership.

We won’t really find out what he’s made of re Europe until there’s a commons vote on the deal and he whips his party.  But even then there is room for doubt because there is a strong argument in favour of pragmatism i.e. vote the deal through so we can end the uncertainty.