EU Referendum – are you in or out?

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  • EU Referendum – are you in or out?
  • Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    Pretty much everyone I know has become more left as they get older, as the unfairness of the right’s position becomes ever more obvious.

    Some of that is historic and some will be a bubble thing,a s we get older we have selected out social groups and interaction. My parents have certainly fallen into the Daily Fail propaganda camp over the last few years

    Premier Icon slowoldman
    Subscriber

    Pretty much everyone I know has become more left as they get older

    Same here, though I suspect that, like which newspaper your read, it has a lot to do with the company you keep.

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber

    Cambridge Analytica (“CA”) being involved with <span class=”skimlinks-unlinked”>Leave.EU</span> other than a preliminary exercise.

    Oops looks like mefty missed this one too

    kerley
    Member

    Same here, though I suspect that, like which newspaper your read, it has a lot to do with the company you keep.

    Yes, it would be down to that.  The data doesn’t lie, the shift to conservative happens at around 45-50 years old.  The good news is that the age is getting a bit older before people are pulling up the draw bridge as it was around 40 years old a while ago.

    I am less left wing than I was when I was 16 but only because at sixteen I was a little bit idealistic!

    Premier Icon slowoldman
    Subscriber

    I veered wildly between Marxist and fascist through puberty and adolescence before alighting on my current position of liberal snowflake which I have held for many years now.

    tjagain
    Member

    So today we have David “drunken dimwit” Davies saying that mps should vote down the deal so as to force the EU it offering a better one and Domenic “know nothing” Raab saying that he didn’t realise how important Dover / Calais is

    Jeepers.  Its really unbelievable how dim this lot are

    makkag
    Member

    Interesting today in focus podcast from the guardian with Yanis varoufakis , illustrating why any negotiations with the eu were never going to work from the start and the subterfuge that Go’s on to undermine.

    David “drunken dimwit” Davies

    Class act. I wonder, did you fling the same insults at Charles Kennedy? Talk about playing the man and not the ball.

    Premier Icon zippykona
    Subscriber

    Any “insult” put David davis’ way is entirely justified. The man is a stupid **** ****.

    tjagain
    Member

    Nope – Kennady was not a dimwit.  He was also an alcoholic.  Nor did he hold high offices of state while being patently unfit to do so  Davies is just a drunken oaf.

    given he turned up drunk for “negotiations” and press conferences and he admitted he didn’t need to know anything I think its quite fair enough to call him a drunken dimwit.  Its what he is.  Not a man deserving of any sympathy

    Interesting today in focus podcast from the guardian with Yanis varoufakis , illustrating why any negotiations with the eu were never going to work from the start and the subterfuge that Go’s on to undermine.

    Good call that.

    Here’s the link

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/audio/2018/nov/08/taking-on-the-eu-podcast

    tjagain
    Member

    Davies in april on voting down the deal,
    <div class=”quoted__contents”>

    I’m not going to give advice on how to create circumstances which may undermine the government’s negotiating position. I’m not entirely sure how much force a government sent back with its tail between its legs by parliament would have in such a negotiation.

    </div>
    Davies today
    <div class=”quoted__contents”>

    What would happen if the deal fell apart, which I think at the moment is looking like a probability … If it was voted down, then they would have to go back to the union once more.

    Now, this will be a slightly different atmosphere. Both sides will be staring at no deal.

    Now, I don’t think no deal is as frightening as people think. But the government is obviously nervous of it. And the European commission, and all the member states – nearly all the member states – are nervous of it. So I think that will force a very, very different, and actually, I think, rather better deal.

    </div>

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber

    Varoufakis saying there what hes said from the start

    It all goes back to Davis- the genius behind Mays early GE to strengthen their brexit mandate after that disaster he & may went from ‘scheduling will be the row of the summer’ to meekly accepting EU timetable on day1 of talks.

    Davis now doing the exactly other thing that Varoufakis says not to; undermining her position back home

    remarkable how  the government keep making these mistakes!

    mefty
    Member

    Your choice of key points is rather fascinating.

    To be fair, they are not mine, I paraphrased Tim Shipman, the Sunday Times political correspondent and writer of the most highly regarded book on the campaign – “All Out War”, a very good read.  However, they are key because without any evidence to support her claims there is no link to the official Leave entity.

    To recap, CA misused Facebook data but this was primarily US data and certainly had nothing to do with the referendum.  CA were exposed as snake-oil salesman and that has caused the company to go bust and Facebook was fined, but to re-iterate this was nothing to do with the referendum.  Her whistleblower was a key participant in this misuse.

    The problems arise when she tried to cast a wider web to suggest the same forces were used to cause the UK to vote leave and link it to the official campaign.

    To do this it was necessary to establish a significant link between AIQ and CA.   Yes, AIQ did work for CA during the US election but their relationship was found to be contractual by ICO so not particularly significant and certainly insufficient to establish a credible link to justify the conspiracy, which would impact the referendum.

    CA did do some preliminary work with UKIP/Leave.Eu that is the invoice she tweeted, it is not that interesting as CA’s relationship fell away when Vote Leave got official designation and it has been in the public domain for months and has been discussed at the Select Committee.

    Leave.eu certainly breached data rules but the vast majority of the fine relates to poor saps who signed up for Leave.eu being marketed with Banks’ insurance products, the data breach which might have effect on the referendum was one 300,000 email-shot which is tiny in the context of the campaign.

    Vote Leave have been fined for following Electoral Commission advice because the Courts found that whilst the EC had certainly given the advice, it was wrong.  Accordingly, the EC fined VL for following their own advice.  This is all a bit of mess and everyone is appealing everything.

    Fundamentally, there is nothing that swung the referendum here, which those still coming to terms with vote are desperate to find.  Brexit has sent people mad.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    Apologist.

    Premier Icon igm
    Subscriber

    Disagree with your last statement Mefty – not mad exactly.

    On side knew and freely admitted they couldn’t win a rational campaign (ie on the economy), they had to make it emotional (eg immigration, giving our money away).

    They were very successful in that.

    Unfortunately that genii doesn’t go back in the bottle. If you can keep an argument rational, you have a good chance that people will agree and form consensus afterwards. But with emotional arguments, not so much.

    So what we are seeing is just the normal and fairly expected response to the campaign of 3-3 years ago.

    As for me, I’m not sure I see a conspiracy, though there may have been one, but I do see the leave campaign as basically corrupt, in premise and in execution and in reaction to their victory.

    And that’s what I believe and you can’t challenge beliefs with rational argument. 😉

    Now we’ve got that out of the way we need to stop reliving 2016. They won, we lost. Democracy must now move on to what that victory should actually mean and what the next vote should be on.

    tjagain
    Member

    Mefty – so all that overspending did not break the rules nor make any difference?  How about the money channelled to the NI leave campaign from shady disguised sources.  Lots of other dubious sources of funding as well for various leave groups.

    As for the CA stuff – theoretically UKIP but infact straight from Banks.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    Going back a thousand pages or so in this thread…

    – More control of our borders
    – No new border controls on the island of Ireland
    – No new border controls in the sea between NI and rUK

    3 redlines “we” won’t cross. Now, draw the shape those redlines make on a map. Publish it to be scrutinised.

    This needed doing before calling a referendum on it, and getting public backing for such a redrawing of our borders

    This needed doing before triggering A50 and limiting our time to implement the changes

    It still needs doing before seeking approval from UK ministers, MPs, the NI public, the Irish government, the currently sleeping NI assembly, never mind the EU.

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber

    Didnt the ICO also say theres no way to know if te Eldon insurance customers who had their data shared ilegaly with CA/AIQ were influeneced by the targeted advertising they received?

    And its hardly mad to enjoy watching Banks, Wigmore, UKIP, Leave.EU being forced to constantly change their story as their lies get exposed again & again, schadenfreude time!

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber

    As the DUP are waving their willies around again good summary of who May needs to win over to get her pleases no one deal through parliament, assuming that cabinet can swallow it in the first place & get it signed off by the end of the month

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-09/you-do-the-math-can-may-get-her-brexit-deal-through-parliament

    vote in january?

    (also R4 this morning interviewed the people Davis claimed on the show yesterday who said no deal would be no problem- head of port at dover & ports in northern France- they did not corroborate his fiction)

    mefty
    Member

    Didnt the ICO also say theres no way to know if te Eldon insurance customers who had their data shared ilegaly with CA/AIQ were influeneced by the targeted advertising they received?

    Not specifically, just a general comment that we may never know the impact of any data breaches but that isn’t their job, which is to police them.  Nothing to do with CA, who had no ongoing role, or AIQ, who worked with Vote Leave.

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber

    ICO report said that AIQ placed $2m worth of targeted facebook adds for Vote Leave, Leave.EU & BeLeave, as well as other adds also for DUP

    this is where Banks’ lies caught him out he claimed that his company Big Data Dolphins was using CAs methods  to target voters, but the ICO couldnt confirm it

    this has been refereed to the Police by the ICO & is being investigated whether the data came from Banks’s Eldon, users of GoSkippy etc

    also In july this year the ICO orderd AIQ to stop using UK citizens data obtained from political organisations

    Premier Icon Flaperon
    Subscriber

    I’m really enjoying this whole farce now. I enjoy reading quotes and tweets and not having any idea if they’re satire or not, and the joy of realising that someone actually said something that monumentally stupid in public reminds me that no matter how dim I might be, there’s always someone thicker.

    Premier Icon zippykona
    Subscriber

    If a vote for either a hard or a so Brexit materialises initially I thought id vote soft.

    That means I will have voted to leave the EU. Something I don’t think I can do.

    It would also mean 100%  of voters voted to leave.That would be used as a mandate to do whatever the **** the idiots wanted.

    As much as I’d take a soft over a hard I really don’t know what I’d do. Aargh.

    thecaptain
    Member

    You know, I actually don’t give much of a shit about the funny money and the dodgy dealings. The problems with brexit are intrinsic to brexit and would remain regardless of how many people sincerely wanted it or how much they were/were not influenced by illegal ads.

    What I still want to see from the brexiters is a credible plan for what to do and how the country gains from it, not a litany of excuses and arguments about how and why they won. Yes, you won, we know, so shit or get off the pot.

    Yesterday we had the edifying spectacle of Davis criticising his own incompetent negotiations when he was Brexit Secretary, and Raab discovering that we are an island that does a lot of trade through Dover/Calais.

    Tick, and tock.

    mefty
    Member

    ICO report said that AIQ placed $2m worth of targeted facebook adds for Vote Leave, <span class=”skimlinks-unlinked”>Leave.EU</span> & BeLeave, as well as other adds also for DUP

    No it doesn’t, AIQ worked for Vote Leave, Beleave, DUP and VfB, but NOT Leave.EU.

    sobriety
    Member

    That means I will have voted to leave the EU. Something I don’t think I can do.

    I’m going to draw an extra box for “Remain in the EU as before” on my ballot and tick that.

    I’m wondering what happens to the vote if the majority of ballots are spoiled? Would it nullify the vote so they’d have to run it again? And if so, can we just keep spoiling until they ask the right question?

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    As much as I’d take a soft over a hard I really don’t know what I’d do. Aargh.

    The problem here is the same as it was two years ago.  There is no soft brexit, there never was, it’s a cake and unicorns fantasy.  The EU will never move on splitting the Four Freedoms and we can’t put a border in Ireland (by law, now).  Which leaves us in a situation where the only “soft” brexit option would be for us to capitulate to the freedom of movement and all that jazz – ie, Brexit In Name Only – meaning we’d be in almost the same position we are now only no longer having any say in EU decisions.  And absolutely no-one wants that, it’d arguably be more insane than just crashing out.

    A referendum on hard or soft brexit (where’s that come from, did I miss something?) would be, literally, a box ticking exercise.  Say for the sake of argument 100% of voters voted hard.  Or 100% voted soft.  Then what, what does that gain us?  Does the “will of the people” suddenly make the impossible possible?

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    No it doesn’t, AIQ worked for Vote Leave, Beleave, DUP and VfB, but NOT Leave.EU.

    They’re all different cheeks of the same arse, I don’t think it matters hugely.

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber

    ahh so it was just the official brexit campaign that gave AIQ uk users data

    but they are such honest individuals…..

    mefty
    Member

    They’re all different cheeks of the same arse, I don’t think it matters hugely.

    It does if you want to suggest there is a conspiracy.

    ahh so it was just the official brexit campaign that gave AIQ uk users data

    but they are such honest individuals…..

    Vote Leave generated data, which was then used by AIQ to send out targetted facebook ads, all allowed within data protection law.

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber

    AIQ were ordered to delete personal data of UK individuals it had held on to

    they claimed that as a canadian company they werent bound by ICO, but they & the canadian government disagreed

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber

    I liked it when honest operator Banks had this in an email chain when he sent his financial records to the BBC to help clear his name

    Redact the reference for Ural Properties

    mefty
    Member

    But you miss out the concluding sentance of Section 3.6.1 of the ICO’s report.  This is the section that discusses the enforcement notice etc.  The final sentance is

    Our further investigations into AIQ revealed no evidence of the unlawful
    processing of UK personal data

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber
    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    So, both Johnsons have now resigned from government because the Brexit on offer is much worse than remaining. One staunchly for Leave. One staunchly for Remain.

    I’d prefer it if they didn’t resign and just got on with their bloody jobs. So full of themselves. it’s not like they’ve actually quit, they’re not down the Job Centre signing up for Universal Credit

    Klunk
    Member

    “Indeed, the choice being presented to the British people is no choice at all.

    “The first option is the one the government is proposing: an agreement that will leave our country economically weakened, with no say in the EU rules it must follow and years of uncertainty for business.

    “The second option is a ‘no deal’ Brexit that I know as a Transport Minister will inflict untold damage on our nation.

    “To present the nation with a choice between two deeply unattractive outcomes, vassalage and chaos, is a failure of British statecraft on a scale unseen since the Suez crisis.”

    lol the penny has finally dropped, our brightest and best are pretty slow and dim

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    on with their bloody jobs

    Which is? When it comes to Brexit? Deliver the undeliverable? Or knowingly walk the country into a powerless cul de sac? Or rip up all Ireland measures of the GFA? Bring goods transit to a crawl?

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