Heh.  Didn’t bloody well think of that did they?

I think Corbyn is a good enough political player to know where the political advantage lies.  No doubt the public mood is shifting away from brexit as the chickens come home to roost.  No doubt the vast majority of MPs on both sides of the house are in favour of staying in or as close as possible to the EU.

To date the labour parties ambiguity has been the right move politically.  Now is the time to shift stance towards a sensible option.  Labour will still want a bit of ambiguity and also to arrive at a position that the sensible tories can get behind.  this will be progress towards that.

Unfortunatly its still about the political game not whats the right thing for the country but you never know – we might just get something sensible from them as a policy.

I think Corbyn is a good enough political player to know where the political advantage lies.

Jeremy Corbyn? The leader of the Labour Party? Surely he’ll advise his MPs to abstain – yet again?

Maybe, maybe not, Tuesday will be very telling.

Faced with the devastation of UK industry exports to the EU, no meaningful trade deals in place and union pressure to preserve jobs, that might trump his other views.

I’m half tempted to take the day off so I can watch the car crash in slow motion.

https://fta.co.uk/media/press-releases/2018/june/brexit-britain-on-the-road-to-nowhere-says-fta

the good news keeps on coming

It’s funny, when people like me used to moan about the EU we were told not to be silly and the EU plays virtually no part in our lives…now that Brexit won the remainers are loving lecturing people just how big a part the EU played in British life and how much worse things will be….it can’t be both, make your mind up…desperation springs to mind.

That’s because the Eu has little to no specific impact on the man on the street on a day to day basis.

However, several decades of integration means that leaving has a massive impact on some big, important stuff like, I dunno, business in general.

As a rule barriers to seamless trade make business harder and more expensive.

It’s not desperation, it’s bloody obvious.

And if you’re hiding money offshore and not paying tax on it, whilst the less well off are struggling with public spending cuts you should be worried about the upcoming EU tax reforms. That’s a good motivatior for Brexit.

Just ask Ian Duncan Smith, or Jacob Rees Mogg.

It’s funny, when people like me used to moan about the EU we were told not to be silly and the EU plays virtually no part in our lives

Did we? Or did we just point out that the UK parliament still had a shit load of power and sovereignty which it just neglected to use on topics like immigration and blue passports.

now that Brexit won the remainers are loving lecturing people just how big a part the EU played in British life and how much worse things will be

I’m sure if you go back through this thread you will see pages of the good things the EU has meant for the UK, FFS just wander around and see all the funded by the EU stickers, look for things the UK government decided to fund…

.it can’t be both, make your mind up…desperation springs to mind.

I’d say memory issues myself

people like me

People in the Brexit circle jerk you mean?

I’m fascinated by the volte face of Remainers who, pre-EU referendum, insisted the EU had virtually no role in our lives but now, post-ref, claim the EU is so intricately involved in every area of our lives that we cannot possibly hope to ever extricate ourselves. Which is it?

— Julia Hartley-Brewer (@JuliaHB1) June 3, 2018

It’s funny, when people like me used to moan about the EU we were told not to be silly and the EU plays virtually no part in our lives…now that Brexit won the remainers are loving lecturing people just how big a part the EU played in British life and how much worse things will be….it can’t be both, make your mind up…desperation springs to mind.

I don’t remember that.

I do remember a lot of lies from the Leave camp about £350M/wk for the NHS and super easy trade deals, and how the German car manufacturers would save us.

I think Mattyfez has listed the only remaining good reason for Brexit.

Nice copy and paste Deviant.

Maybe try thinking for yourself ?

Meanwhile European politicians are faced with electorates who increasingly want Britain to be dealt with firmly and in those countries brave enough to put the question “are you in favour of Brexit?” in their opinion polls the answer is increasingly “yes”. Check our the polls in whatever languages you speak.

Are Corbyn words something new and a step in the right direction or just more unobtainable vagueness?

Just when you think that some common sense might have broken out in the labour party, you read the detail and realise its actually as incoherent as ever. 

A lot better than the shambles of the Tory’s, held hostage as they are by their nutter wing, but still sounds very very ‘cake and eat it’. I live in hope that they’re edging towards a sensible approach, but its like water torture.

Meanwhile, the Mash nails it once again

Just when you think that some common sense might have broken out in the labour party, you read the detail and realise its actually as incoherent as ever. 

it’s the same rubbish as before – wanting all the benefits of the single market, just as he’s said before. What make him/they think they can negotiate past all the EU’s rules any better than the torys?  There’s nothing new.

And any chance we had to actually make a decent negotiation is removed by this final vote nonsense – it is like playing poker with the other player able to view your hand.

It’s a gradual progression with Corbyn, first of all a bit customs uniony , then CU membership sounds good, now it’s something very like the single market, which will morph into full SM membership via EEA, if he’s serious about a ‘jobs first brexit’ 🙄 it’s the logical conclusion. If he can do it without alienating too many Leave voting labour supporters, then job done!

Getting close tho, he’s only been able to take such a chilled approach because the Tories are absolutely clueless about how to proceed & paralysed on every issue brexit throws up.

more unobtainable vagueness

Yup, a stated desire to keep full access to… (careful wording time)… the internal market, but with no acceptance of using any of the shared bodies and aggrements that facilitate that… and why? To stop the serfs moving around to better themselves and live their lives as free people. And why? Because people who don’t even vote Labour say that the referendum was about immigration.

 any chance we had to actually make a decent negotiation is removed by this final vote nonsense

Haha ! did you actually believe all that bluster from Gove, IDS, Johnson, Mogg etc that we had any leverage in the first place!?😁

It’s been obvious from day 1  when Davis rolled over like a puppy on scheduling, then we conceded to every demand at the talks so far that it’s not a negotiation, just a simple choice between a Norway, Swiss, Canada or 3rd country.

Squaring that with the promises of the Brexiters has left the Tories running in circles

And any chance we had to actually make a decent negotiation is removed by this final vote nonsense –

It was gone long before that, to continue the poker analogy its like we sent our best snap players to the high rollers room. The UK had no good cards to start with, the eu knew that, everyone knew that

Deviant, you might want to try actually analysing the situation instead of just twisting things to support your pre-existing beliefs.  You’ll learn a lot more that way.

Why do people keep on thinking the UK is in a negotiation? It isn’t really, the EU has stated what the options are, the UK has to pick.

By its very nature a union of 28 countries has to be fairly rigid, it has to abide by rules to work. That the UK still hasn’t decided what it wants just adds further insanity to the situation.

Anyway enjoy the civil war in April next year when the brexiteers learn the hard way what it means to exist outside of any trading framework.

To date the labour parties ambiguity has been the right move politically.  Now is the time to shift stance towards a sensible option.  Labour will still want a bit of ambiguity and also to arrive at a position that the sensible tories can get behind.  this will be progress towards that.

I wish that I could believe this to be the case, however I have run out of good will towards Corbyn and for me it would take nothing less than for the Labour leadership to mount a full on case to remain with a commitment to address the underlying issues which tipped the balance (lack of infrastructure investment, poor prospects in some areas, austerity, erosion of skilled jobs, etc) before I got behind the party again.

Only someone deluded would conclude that the current Brexit path is going well – it’s obvious that the cabinet is split to the point that there’s no coherent plan, the global trade situation isn’t helping matters given that there’s a brewing trade war and whether we like it or not, we’re a very small fish at the mercy of a number of supranational trade treaties that pay no heed to the whimsy of little Englanders.

Next April? Isn’t it next week when it really hits the fan? Thats when shit gets real, and proper real-world stuff like the Customs Union actually gets voted on.

So thats when the civil war within the Tory party officially breaks out. That’ll be when the Saboteurs/Enemies of the People actually vote against the government Brexit strategy*

Theres a very real possibility that we won’t have a functioning government by the end of next week.

Not that we’ve got one now at the moment, but all hell is really going to break out in the Tory ranks next week. Expect bluffs to finally be getting called. About time too. The phoney war has gone on for quite long enough now. Time for the knives to come out for real.

I’m sure the labour party ‘announcement’ this morning has simply been made to stir things up

* The word ‘strategy’ is used figuratively in this instance, and is not intended to denote anything even remotely plausible

Next April?

until March we are still in the EU, food and lorries can still cross the channel unhindered. Come next march when the customs walls come down. Then the **** really hits the fans, give it a week for supermarkets to run short then civil war, i don’t mean in the tory party i mean on the street when people realise they have been screwed.

weirdly I had almost exactly the same reply that Deviant used in reply to a twitter comment I made

the account was based in California & looked very much like a bot !

taking the poker analogy on

At that point, when you realise your cards are shit, and you’re way out of your depth in ability….. do you keep following each raise or fold while you still have the shirt on your back?

weirdly I had almost exactly the same reply that Deviant used in reply to a twitter comment I made

Had a look at Deviants posting history and he is a Trumpist. wonder if he also a football season ticket holder?

I am looking for a answer as to why brexit, robinson, trump and football season ticket holders seem to be one and the same group.

I am looking for a answer as to why brexit, robinson, trump and football season ticket holders seem to be one and the same group.

Whilst being cautious about linking correlation to causation, I’d suggest there may be a relation between intelligence and a propensity to fall into those groups…

Whilst being cautious about linking correlation to causation, I’d suggest there may be a relation between intelligence and a propensity to fall into those groups…

Possible, i had wondered if it is tribalism and a hatred of them that seems to be developed byso many supporters.

 for me it would take nothing less than for the Labour leadership to mount a full on case to remain

It can’t do that, electorally speaking.

Apparently. The thing is that post Brexit and Trump, May chucking a 22 point poll lead and a majority away, and just the general atmosphere at the moment, nobody’s actually got a bloody clue what will and won’t fly electorally.

And anyone who says they have is an idiot.

Labour might as well call the electorates bluff and give it a go, as their present ‘constructive ambiguity’ is just as untenable going forward as the Tories fairy-dust Oirish border. It just means that neither party has a credible policy on the most important issue to face the country in generations. No electoral alternative is being presented except some Will of the People/Brexit means Brexit horseshit

A party growing a pair, instead of just rudderlessly drifting towards economic armageddon may well have a lot of electoral appeal

kind of agree binners, but the vast majority of leave voters still think brexit is a good idea, literally millions of people still think that we will be better off outside the EU.

In spite of the obvious incompetence of May, the broken promises of the brexiters & the ‘negotiations’ being a national humilation…

whatever motivated people to vote leave their opinions havent changed much & they still believe that their willpower can oversome things like facts & reality

Gordon Brown of all people, made a good speech yesterday about what can be done to address many of the grivences that leave voters hold , all whilst staying within the EU

whatever motivated people to vote leave their opinions havent changed much & they still believe that their willpower can oversome things like facts & reality

Which is why i think that crashing out, the resultant job losses and destruction of the UK economy is probably a good thing. It would do a large percentage of the population good to realise the UK isn’t a big global superpower anymore. Of course they will blame everyone but themselves but in the resultant civil war they would soon be got rid of.

Gordon Brown

A man who I firmly belived was the worst PM we’d ever have.

Turns out I was wrong. Very, very wrong.

Gordon Brown of all people, made a good speech yesterday about what can be done to address many of the grievances that leave voters hold, all whilst staying within the EU.

I think that it’s absolutely vital that we make sense of the grievances of people who voted leave and to address them.  If we fail to do this and simply walk blindly into a “will of the people” destructive Brexit that doesn’t actually do anything but make people poorer, then we’re simply kicking the can further down the road and will invite a populist backlash which may be closer than we think.

The terrifying thing is that with any likely outcome, post-May, the whole WORST. PM. EVER. situation could well degenerate yet further.

Gordon Brown now looks like a towering political colossus

Oh come on, at least we know what most of the fetid cretins who want her job stand for, however unpleasant their viewpoints may be. Not even May knows what she stands for.

Labour might as well call the electorates bluff and give it a go, as their present ‘constructive ambiguity’ is just as untenable going forward as the Tories fairy-dust Oirish border.

Yes, except that Labour haven’t got an election coming up so can afford to be cagey; whereas the Tories DO have a Brexit coming up.

the vast majority of leave voters still think brexit is a good idea, literally millions of people still think that we will be better off outside the EU.

most leave voters still hate foreigners (probably even more than before) and live in the glory years of WW2.

Until this mentality changes (mainly in england as thats where it’ll be won or lost) it will always be a tight race between leave and remain.

The youth vote needs mobilised and I think another EU ref could do it. Especially after the youth vote won the abortion ref in RoI