At risk of annoying you TJ, I’ve posted before that I think the SNP’s position of this union bad but that union good is intellectually incoherent at best.

I think the SNP position is basically **** off you tory ****.

One that I agree with.

That doesn’t  annoy me – its just political debate.  What annoys me is the racism of those like THM and pontificating by those who do not undrstand scots politics.  Understand what is going on and reach conclusions that are valid is fine even if it differs from me and the SNP do have some contradictions in their stance and membership however its fairly simple.  In the EU we choose to share sovereignty.  In the UK we have no choice and the UK actively acts against scotlands interests.  thats the major difference.  iS in the EU would be able to for example raise taxes on booze and not have to use the flawed minimum pricing scheme. iS in the EU would be able to use much more radical taxation schemes.  iS in the EU would have a lot more freedom than it does now.

Scotland is diverging politically from England but is constrained by the UK union in a way it wouldn’t be by the EU

At risk of annoying you TJ, I’ve posted before that I think the SNP’s position of this union bad but that union good is intellectually incoherent at best.

Not sure it is tbh. The UK and EU are different unions.

Crucially its about power and soverignity

Scotland has minimal influence at Westminster and Westminster has a long history of acting for England when its to Scotlands detriment.  Scotland has no choice in many areas.  sovereignty is Westminsters

IN the EU iScotland would have influence and any power the EU has is given to them / shared with them and the sovereignty resides with the scottish people

Basically iScotland in the EU would not have tory austerity forced upon it

If you believe that a #PeoplesVote on the deal is tantamount to stopping Brexit, then you believe the people don't want Brexit.

— Femi (@Femi_Sorry) May 2, 2018

For the record THM was not banned and not tried to get around the ban as he isn’t banned.

He’s probably deep deep undercover on a secret mission

Crucially its about power and soverignity

Scotland has minimal influence at Westminster and Westminster has a long history of acting for England when its to Scotlands detriment.  Scotland has no choice in many areas.  sovereignty is Westminsters

Scotland is only an issue due to history, with only 5 1/2 Million people it’s a very small place similar to Yorkshire.

The Pro Brexies and Rampant Tories do seem to have gone, it seems to be common around the place, those that are left are really those who are in the all or nothing camp,

Finally the UK democracy is kicking in and starting to hold the PM to account, hope this continues.

Ta Drac.  My confusion

mike – similar size to Finland, Sweden, Norway, a bit smaller than the Netherlands, IIRC.  Plenty of independent countries around that size – indeed I believe units of 5 – 10 million are as big as you can get a have proper representative government.

IN the EU iScotland would have influence and any power the EU has is given to them / shared with them and the sovereignty resides with the scottish people

Basically iScotland in the EU would not have tory austerity forced upon it

This is very reminiscent of the kind of airy statements the brexies were making before the EU referendum. “It’ll be fine, they’ll give us what we want”. How much influence, in a union where you’re about 1% of the population and (if you’re in the Euro) fiscal policy is set for 27 other countries (Netherlands are about 3x bigger than Scotland btw)? Most analysts seem to think that, had you gone independent, you’d have had something that made Tory austerity look like a picnic! And it’s not true to say that Scotland sends more money to London than it gets back therefore quids in; an iScotland would need to spend on those reserved matters that the U.K. government currently handles. I think the parallels are striking; at the end of the day both movements are about appealing to the notion that us, here are better off without them, over there. This feels wrong to me and so I’ll find arguments against it, TJ you obviously like it so you’ll do the opposite. Like most political arguments, it’s about justifying your gut instincts!

Its not about justi8fying gut instinct to me.  Its about having the chance to have a progressive government..

Yes we would have little but some influence in Europe because of the way the european parliament works.  Also EU membership is much less restrictive than UK.  iScotland would have control of taxation for example and also full control of its national resources and would not have to pay punative charges to acccess the national grid for our electricty generation.

IMO there are two sorts of scots nationalists.  Ideological ones who want independence no matter the cost and pragmatic ones like me who have no ideological attachment to an independent Scotland but see it as an opportunity to have a greener more progressive government – ie no tory governments ever again

And it is true that there is more money raised in scotland than is spent here.  a lot of tax raised in scotland is reported in England and thus does not appear on the scottish side of the books

This makes the thread drift a long way tho  lets leave it until we have another vote

No discussion on the massive amount of “really? are you sure?” from her majesty’s peers?

It’s almost as if the Brexiters ‘plans’ are in a complete shambles.😂😂😂

Meanwhile outside my local train station tonight the PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN !!

Scotland is only an issue due to history, with only 5 1/2 Million people it’s a very small place similar to Yorkshire.

Remember the RoI, population c4.7M and a higher GDP per capita than the UK.

But yes getting off track, Brexit does nothing to unite the union, just as the English response to the Easter rising did nothing to pacify the separatists.

I like the Brexitometer.

I think the Mash has pretty much nailed it as regards the Lords: http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/house-of-lords-only-senile-old-bastards-in-country-who-dont-back-brexit-20180509164445

Isn’t it a case that even the head bangers have realised the final result will be a shambles so have gone off to lick their wounds while the remainers have no need to tell each other ‘I told you so’?

Remember the RoI, population c4.7M and a higher GDP per capita than the UK.

But yes getting off track, Brexit does nothing to unite the union, just as the English response to the Easter rising did nothing to pacify the separatists.

And the Irish based their entire economy on attracting foreign companies through ultra low tax incentives – something that Scotland would never be able to stomach, absorb economically or be outright stupid enough to attempt in the first place.

Ireland is also heading for the cliffs again, considering how the world is headed towards increased levels of protectionism and a showdown between the US and EU over Iran.

Suggesting Ireland as a beacon of economic good practice, is actually exactly what Brexies would argue in favour of as well….

Remember the RoI, population c4.7M and a higher GDP per capita than the UK.

Yes, context is everything, if you want influence in a nation of 65million then 5 million people is a very small number, based on a fluctuating border Scotland is defined as a nation but realistically it’s still a historic distinction, you can have the influence on the rUK that the size of your vote gives you.

What is the actual upshot of the Lords votes?

Do the House of Commons say that they don’t like it and tell the lords to stuff it?

I know that I should know how my government works but until recently I was happy to leave them to it but it’s very personal now.

ZippyK – roughly. But it means the commons have to vote again and tends to embolden rebels in the commons.

I note with interest that it is Northeast MPs that have broken ranks with Corbyn and asked for a second referendum – exactly the people the Brexies have been saying couldn’t support staying in the EU because they’d get voted out. Interesting.

The commons can overrule/ignore the Lords but basically it looks bad and reduces credibility.

The commons now get to to vote on on these Lords amendments.

With the government in dissarary over their customs union plans, theres a risk that the Tory unity won’t hold for the votes.

With Corbyn absolutely crushing May today with some pretty simple CU plan questions (his best pmqs this year & May looking more desperate than ever). Maybe labour might start working to block the brexishambles

The commons can send it back to the Lords (up to 3 times I think?) demanding they rethink.

However, if that happened, the time scale is to short to go through the process, so the commons would be forced to accept the amendment.

Bwhahahah.

**** democracy, glad to see the adults in the lords in charge for once anyway. Bring on the benevolent dictatorship and let the proles learn their place again.

**** democracy, glad to see the adults in the lords in charge for once anyway. Bring on the benevolent dictatorship and let the proles learn their place again.

Given what asking the people did for the country your idea may have some merit.  Not fully convinced  yet, but getting there…

Lords is basically advisory. Commons can use the Parliament Act to force it’s will. Oh hang on.  Advisory you say?

What’s the difference between a customs partnership and a customs union?

The words ‘partnership’ and ‘union’.

An interesting argument put forward by Andrew Rawnsley that May knows that theres no way she can get a vote to exit the customs union through parliament. The numbers just don’t add up. With Nicky Morgan, Anna Soubry, Ken Clarke et al making it known theres no way they’ll vote for it. So any commons vote on the subject means a defeat

So she’s ploughing on regardless, to shut the noisy headbangers up (Boris, Rees-Mogg IDS etc) so that when (not ‘if’) the bill is defeated in the commons, she can say “oh well… I tried…. but the numbers just didn’t add up. What a shame, eh?”

The lords know full well the numbers don’t add up, so they’re teeing up amendments so that a parliamentary majority can knock them down. Still a disaster (no voting rights in the EU), but essentially ‘as you were’.

Whats needed now is for Corbyn to use his grey matter (difficult, I know), reject his inherent anti-EU knee-jerk, and advocate Labour supporting single market membership. Then this whole shitstorm is dead in the water.

Can you imagine the wailing that would induce in the Daily Heil, Boris and chums? What a joy to watch that would be, as the government simultaneously imploded

Brexiters in full on panic mode, now want to extend transition as they still can’t figure out how to make it all work.

Big story – *Brexiteers* want to extend transition in return for getting their way on a technological solution to the Irish border ('Max Fac'). EU has already discussed possibility of an extension. And, of course, it doesn't believe Max Fac can ever work. https://t.co/Q7wr30BmJu

— Nick Gutteridge (@nick_gutteridge) May 10, 2018

Yeah, it seems to be dawning on even the densest, flag-waving ****-wit that their grand project/pipe-dream is a totally unworkable shambles, so they’re looking to get their excuses in early, and shuffling off

Brexit is a mess. Even its cheerleaders will abandon it

and with Trump threatening big sanctions on anyone working with Iran , and the EU determined to stick with the agreement , the UK is stuck in the middle .

wheres THM to remind us the grown-ups will fix it all

even the grown ups have given up!

https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-cabinet-brexit-impasses-stalemate-gloom-descends-boris-johnson-challenge/

The sensible thing would be for the UK to hold rank with the EU on this, which is what they seem to be doing so far.

Even if we did follow the USA on Iran, I think even the most frothy mouthed brexiters are beginning to realise is won’t win us any grace with the trump administration.

Mr Hannan, writing on ConservativeHome, said he was often asked, “not working out the way you thought, is it?” He said: “To be fair, they’ve got a point.” He went on: “I had assumed that, by now, we’d have reached a broad national consensus around a moderate form of withdrawal that recognised the narrowness of the result.”

He backed being in the European Free Trade Association (Efta) – participation in the single market of 500 million people, but without the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice.

Yes, that’s Daniel Hannan. In the Eveny Stannit (to misquote Eric and Ernie)

Discuss

Thanks Daniel. So basically, just getting rid of the ECJ. Couldn’t we just have done that by ignoring its rulings like everyone else does?

Discuss?

the truth is out there, it’s in 40ft high letters all over the place, it’s really hard to miss and being charged with delivering any of it will result in a massive screw up. At least a lot of the leave leaders are spineless…