EU Referendum – are you in or out?

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  • EU Referendum – are you in or out?
  • ninfan
    Member

    So, go on, outline the replacement for EU membership that more people would prefer to remaining a member…

    not remaining a member

    That’s the replacement for EU membership that 17,410,742 voters were all agreed on support for

    You may have missed it somewhere amids all the noise and hyperbole of the hysterical (but clearly superior, younger, outward looking and more intelligent) remainers wailing and screaming about not getting their own way for once

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
    Subscriber

    As difficult as the concept of a negotiation.

    A negotiation that involves compromise etc

    ?

    Premier Icon dissonance
    Subscriber

    i would suggest that anyone seeking to caveat or pre-condition their choice in the way you purport to be valid would be somewhere within the 25,359 rejected ballots.

    Convenient.

    So you dont feel that some people may have been mislead, either to vote remain or leave, based on the faulty advertising?

    Or maybe thought that as it was an advisory only referendum that there would be a second chance to review what was decided on by the elites.

    ninfan
    Member

    A negotiation that involves compromise etc

    Indeed THM, one that requires compromise. However I’m sure you would agree that, of course, that the single unifying factor of everyone who voted to leaves vision of what leaving looked like was that it involved leaving.

    at the moment the STW remainer vision of “compromise” appears to involve “well, you leavers need to compromise on leaving, and we’ll just carry on as we were as if nothing has changed”

     it was an advisory only referendum that there would be a second chance to review what was decided on by the elites.

    i don’t know where they might have got that idea, since the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom told us all that the Government would enact whatever the decision of the people in the referendum was, and indeed the government was elected on that basis, as was the successor government elected on upholding the outcome of the referendum and putting it into action.

    one would have assumed that if there were widespread, nationwide opposition to this course of action, then the political parties pledging to overturn the outcome of the referendum and not pursue the plan to leave would have won th3 subsequent general election?

    democracy eh?

    Premier Icon AD
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    Actually I am all for a compromise that doesn’t completely **** up manufacturing industry or lead to people blowing stuff up in Ireland. Basically the things the quitters couldn’t be arsed to think about when placing a big old X.

    C’m on ninfan – tell us how to solve these problems instead of just trolling. You and your 17M mates voted for this. I don’t think it unreasonable that you should have to come up with some solutions.

    My compromise solution is something that looks exactly like we have now but we get a blue passport for example

    ninfan
    Member

    C’m on ninfan – tell us how to solve these problems instead of just trolling. You and your 17M mates voted for this. I don’t think it unreasonable that you should have to come up with some solutions.

    Would you accept an outcome/compromise that involved us leaving the EU?

    and if so, why haven’t you spent the last eighteen months campaigning in favour of that rather than campaigning to ignore the outcome of the referendum?

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    Lots of people who voted Remain could get behind a compromise that got rid of EU membership, but minimised the impact on their rights of movement, and their line of work… but lots of people who voted Leave would be dead against that. So… outline the compromise you have in mind… outline a proposed replacement for EU membership that more people would back over continued membership than wouldn’t…

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    Its a negotiation we made an offer we were happy with (stay you get a blue passport – it seems very important to some) now you counter offer

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    Just as I thought – tedious troll doesn’t have any solutions.

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    Of course not, that would involve alienating people who don’t want that version of leave (along with the rest of the country who democratically don’t matter)

    As for why people have campaigned against a few reasons

    We Can – it’s called democracy

    We are still waiting for a credible plan from the government that doesn’t contradict itself or be full of holes- until that happens don’t expect much support

    We see a no win outcome where the UK will be worse off with the only good news being it’s not quite as bad as we first though (ie still not good or better than now)

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
    Subscriber

    Everything is about economics for you guys. For many people there are much wider issues

    ninfan
    Member

    outline a proposed replacement for EU membership that more people would back over continued membership than wouldn’t…

    I don’t believe there is any compromise that could retain continued membership of the EU, sim0ly due to the fact that that wouldn’t be a compromise, it would be ignoring the outcome of the referendum

    everything else is up for grabs

    edit: @THM, indeed, “worse off” is a relative term isn’t it – even the much cried over economic predictions accept its a case of “not quite as better off economically than we might have been but still better off” – and that’s before anyone discusses the effect on schools, housing, community integration and social cohesion, etc – all of which involve highly subjective considerations of what “better off” and “worse off” might mean

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    That they seem to be unable to vocalise or agree on, it’s tough having to actually do something isn’t it.

    Also worse off is in a wide ranging sense from diversity, tolerance and a spirit of cooperation that has reverted to petty squabbling and a lot of anger/hate.

    Still when the government pipe up we will all know the secret plan and will all obediently agree it’s the only gig in town and we had better all just jolly well get on and enjoy it. #DemocracyForDictators

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    Right then

    everything else is up for grabs

    We want single market, freedom of movement, cooperation, happy to pay for access, some influence in decision making and the ability to get back in if and when it’s deemed a good idea. Throw in citizenship or lifetime residency with all current EU citizens living in the UK and we might be getting somewhere. Also rule out bad deals with the US involving Health and Food

    Premier Icon dissonance
    Subscriber

    I don’t believe there is any compromise that could retain continued membership of the EU

    So if we ended up with a Norway style deal do you think that would really be in the spirit of all the people voting leave?

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
    Subscriber

    We are giving up membership – that is what people voted for

    Each of the other solutions – including WTO – involve compromises in relation to the governments stated objectives

    The outcome will be determined by negotiations.

    By presenting a divided front we make the likelihood of a negative solution more likely. Which is why the EU surpress their divisions while we seek to magnify and expose them. Who are the fools?

    oldmanmtb
    Member

    Economics THM money’s not important until there isn’t any… can’t pay your bills from the morale high ground… etc

    DrJ
    Member

    That’s right, Tory Party squabbles:

    Aah – I missed the bit where Nick Clegg became Prime Minister. Suddenly your posts all make sense.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    @teamhurtmore

    Spoiler:
    Everything is about economics for you guys. For many people there are much wider issues

    Troll conviently ignores pages of comments about EU workers and our rights (and those of our children) as regards movement for work, education, adventure, love…

    So, @Ninfan, if the goverment said that our new relationship with Europe included getting rid of our Schegnan opt out, as part of helping to keep a close working relationship with the rest of Europe, what support would that have in the wider populaituin? Would it have your support? It would no doubt win over lots of people who voted Remain back in the day.

    ninfan
    Member

    So if we ended up with a Norway style deal do you think that would really be in the spirit of all the people voting leave?

    Jesus, it’s really difficult to get you fixed mentality remainiacs to open your eyes and ears isn’t it?

    Q. does it involve leaving the EU?

    A. = Yes – then it encompasses the variation of outcomes inherently considered acceptable by those who voted to leave the EU in the referendum (the majority)

    A. = No x then it does not encompass the variation of outcomes inherently considered acceptable by those who voted to leave the EU in the referendum (the majority)

    have you got it yet?

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    The outcome will be determined by negotiations.

    By presenting a divided front we make the likelihood of a negative solution more likely. Which is why the EU surpress their divisions while we seek to magnify and expose them. Who are the fools?

    Ah our opinions both don’t matter and are highly dangerous. Great to know.

    The outcome of the negotiations should be weighed up to see if it is in fact a good deal, otherwise we have just failed deal making 101 by admitting from day 1 we will take anything that is offered or go for the nuclear button.

    I’m sure if required THM would be calling Pickfords to organise his move to Athens or Krakow if the deal said it was the only way….

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
    Subscriber

    You are getting the hang of that spoiler gimmick aren’t you. It’s very smart.

    DrJ
    Member

    We should all shut up and be happy with what we are given by the back-room wizards. That’s democracy.

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
    Subscriber

    Ah our opinions both don’t matter and are highly dangerous. Great to know.

    Starch with that ?

    DrJ
    Member

    Troll conviently ignores pages of comments about EU workers and our rights (and those of our children) as regards movement for work, education, adventure, love…

    Those things are hard to express in pounds and pennies, and hence of no importance.

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
    Subscriber

    Its one party that is now 99% focused on pounds, shillings and pence including fretting that our GDP may be a full 0.1% below a previous forecast.

    You decide which is more important

    Premier Icon dissonance
    Subscriber

    have you got it yet?

    I am just fascinated by the sheer stupidity of putting everything from the Norway option to WTC rules under one banner. I am not sure if its deliberate or not?

    ninfan
    Member

    We should all shut up and be happy with what we are given by the back-room wizards. That’s democracy.

    you mean like when we weren’t given a referendum on the EU constitution/Lisbon treaty that was rustled up for us by the back-room wizards, despite repeated promises and an election manifesto pledge to give us one? That sort of democracy?

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
    Subscriber

    Indeed dissonance – have you noticed how people react when you mention bespoke deals that take into account the important nuances. Some even praise the Norway off the shelf idea. Odd isn’t it?

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    Bespoke = anything

    Norway has been praised as a better than some of the crazy talk – though worse than current

    DrJ
    Member

    Another non sequitur. You’re on a roll tonight.

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
    Subscriber

    That (Norway) at least is true

    ninfan
    Member

    Indeed dissonance – have you noticed how people react when you mention bespoke deals that take into account the important nuances. Some even praise the Norway off the shelf idea. Odd isn’t it?

    Of course it’s Odd, some people find lots of things odd, like not committing yourself to a particular outcome in order to give yourself room to negotiate the best possible broad outcome – would you believe that some people find that odd too? I suspect that it’s mainly the type of people who go in to buy a new car or house and open discussions by telling the other party what the actual maximum price they would possibly be willing/able to pay is though. Mind you, if it’s those type of people then we probably shouldn’t be surprised that they expect negotiations to be concluded pretty quickly, should we?

    Premier Icon dissonance
    Subscriber

    Bespoke = anything

    It is about as useful a term as “brexit means brexit”. About its only use is as a way of judging people. Anyone who witters on about it can be safely ignored.

    Norway has been praised as a better than some of the crazy talk – though worse than current

    The “worse” is quite important though. Since anyone who voted to “restore democracy” (another pretty useless term) should be appalled by the idea. Also anyone who is still stupid enough to believe Boris and his lies about 350 for the NHS.

    Since they pay in the cash and follow the laws but have sod all say.

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

     I suspect that it’s mainly the type of people who go in to buy a new car or house and open discussions by telling the other party what the actual maximum price they would possibly be willing/able to pay is though. Mind you, if it’s those type of people then we probably shouldn’t be surprised that they expect negotiations to be concluded pretty quickly, should we?

    What like Red/Pink (pencil) lines?

    Like saying we will take whatever deal we are offered or go for the option no other developed country uses?

    Or by letting ministers prattle on and contradict the negotiations?

    Yes there is a hope some sort of deal can be struck quickly as the alternative is exceptionally messy (even for those sticking their fingers in their ears about any reports) if not at least MP’s will have a say at the end.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    I suspect that it’s mainly the type of people who go in to buy a new car or house and open discussions by telling the other party what the actual maximum price they would possibly be willing/able to pay is though.

    Ah, of course, the “keep your cards close to your chest” bullshit the media were pushing last year. No one believes that any more.

    The government can’t form a plan that the majority of them don’t consider a dud. When brinkmanship forces them to make the difficult decisions, the chance that most of the public consider their plan a dud is pretty damn high… then what?

    Premier Icon jambalaya
    Subscriber

    Being a member of the EU is better than the “Norway option” which is a total dogs breakfast. WTO option is my preference and aside from that pretty much anything is better than being a member.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    Being a member of the EU is better than the “Norway option” which is a total dogs breakfast.

    Agree. Customs arrangements are woeful.

    pretty much anything is better than being a member

    I’m sure you can picture a “bespoke deal” that you consider binds the UK to closely to its largest trading partner… with no control over how that partner transforms itself in future.

    cchris2lou
    Member

    How about some concrète solutions ?

    Like for Northern Ireland.

    Premier Icon jambalaya
    Subscriber

    Look. The Remainiacs want  a bad outcome so they can 1) say we told you so 2) try and get Brexit reversed

    As for the car buying example its more like telling the salesman you are buying the car come what may and at any price of his choosing

    IMHO we will get the best free trade deal with the EU if we make a clean break and trade under WTO for a while for a bit

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