Has everyone forgotten about Farage? Either he’s your man, or more realistically he was the figurehead for the majority of the British population that wanted out of the EU.

Definitely nothing to do with the big two parties. They wanted in.

you have to find your villains outside the Tories<

Murdoch

Dacre

Farage

<span style=”color: #444444; font-size: 12px;”>then its labours heartlands that are going to get clobbered the hardest by Brexit.</span>

Those same heartlands voted for Brexit.

Now they were ill advised to do so but the problem from Labours viewpoint is whether people will backtrack or whether if Labour goes against it whether those heartlands will go for UKIP or other semi camouflaged tory subsidary. Bearing in mind the hard right press will do their best to blame Labour for the asset stripping of their proprietors mates.

Labour have already had a taste of how damaging referendums can be in Scotland when despite digging the tories out of their mess they got all the blame.

It wouldnt be representing their constituents well if the same scenario is repeated in their heartlands.

<span style=”color: #444444; font-size: 12px; background-color: #eeeeee;”>Has everyone forgotten about Farage?</span>

He is really just a tory who got into a hissy fit and left the party and then found it far more fun and less hard work being a rebellious outsider.

Given the choice between disaster capitalism and disaster socialism we might hope that all bar the zealots on either side would actually try to avoid the disaster rather than just play along with it in the hope that their “side” won in the resulting blame game.

@teamhurtmore

Spoiler:

The Tories have @130k members approx

13.6m voted for Tories in GE

17.4m voted Leave

you have to find your villains outside the Tories

Troll post. Nothing more.

Labour have already had a taste of how damaging referendums can be in Scotland when despite digging the tories out of their mess they got all the blame.

A fair point. And you could point to this as a reason for Corbyn refusing to appear at major Manifestio campaign events… but, while that might help the Labour Party, it still contributes to our current position, which isn’t rosey.

Everyone should read kelvin’s link and all the Retreaters should just shut the **** up then **** off.

You could have added something to stop being labelled as such kelvin. Your choice.

or edit multiple times 😉

<span style=”color: #444444; font-size: 16px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;”>you have to find your villains outside the Tories</span>

Not really. The referendum was a direct priduct of Tory in-fighting.

As you perfectly well know.

Zippy… no one should ____ off or ____ up… what they should do is read about how we have made the EU what it is today, and consider how we might shape it in future (but, obviously that means remaining a member).

Kelvin .Retreaters  (leavers) not Remainers.

Nope.

If they were split even less reason to place the blame exclusively on them

17.4m didn’t vote for our side. If you want to blame someone, blame them. Frankly we should blame ourselves – we couldn’t present a decent case for remaining and we lost. But some folk always find taking responsibility difficult don’t they? Much easier to blame others….

Retreaters (leavers) not Remainers.

No, Retreaters should read, talk and stay. Plenty of decent people who want out have no idea how strong we have been in the EU, or the benefits we gain from it. Don’t dismiss them because of how they voted “back then”. There is no chance of either membership, or any other close relationship with the EU, without changing minds about what the EU is, why it is how it is, and how we shape its future (or our relationship with it). The EU will be around for a long time… it needs to be delt with… easier to do so if more people understand it, and the UK’s role in shaping it.

In its current format the EU won’t be around very long. They need to move to full political union if they hope to make the flawed concept of a common currency work.

17.4m didn’t vote for our side. If you want to blame someone, blame them. Frankly we should blame ourselves – we couldn’t present a decent case for remaining and we lost. But some folk always find taking responsibility difficult don’t they? Much easier to blame others….

But over 17 million did, your response is to completely ignore that part of the pipulation from now to eternity.

The remain case didn’t promise the unicorns and streets paved with gold. It had to contend with years of tabloid lies and hate. Years of political neglect in many areas.

“Labour have already had a taste of how damaging referendums can be in Scotland when despite digging the tories out of their mess they got all the blame.”

That’s the myth but it’s clearly untrue- Labour’s collapse started before the referendum. It just became a convenient excuse.

(just to get one step ahead, people have tried to support the myth on here by quoting general election results and ignoring the scottish parliament, so please don’t do that again, it’s really silly)

Don’t feed Mike… or at least wrap his quote in a [ spoiler ] tag. Don’t repeat the obvious baiting.

But but but…the euro has already failed, remember? It’s dead, you can’t use it any more and I haven’t got a wallet full waiting for my next trip 😳

Nope. Cmon mike at least get one easy fact correct

16.1m of us, not enough

No, we falsely promised Armageddon and people saw through it. Correctly it turns out

Nope. The voters would have had nothing to vote about without being given the opportunity in a referendum. Which was supposed to fix Tory party squabbles.

How dare people be given a say?!? We tried that with the Scots and almost screwed that up too. We didn’t learn did we?!?

why would anyone give people a say. Glad no one is suggesting another referendum then ….

He called the referendum

that all three major parties had previously promised…

Which was supposed to fix Tory party squabbles.

That’s right, Tory Party squabbles:

😀

Oh good… another politician who’s played politics.

That doesn’t give us a way forward that the country can get behind? Does it?

Be helpful… outline a replacement for EU membership that a majority of people would support over retaining membership…

<spoiler>16.1m of us, not enough</spoiler>

the 16 million you want to ignore – that always ends well – Still a democratic right to campaign to remain however uncomfortable it makes you

<spoiler>No, we falsely promised Armageddon and people saw through it. Correctly it turns out</span>

Crystal Balls again? Let us know after we leave

That doesn’t give us a way forward that the country can get behind? Does it?

Be helpful…

Be helpful? I know, how about we ask the public what they want in some sort of vote, and then we can all get behind the outcome of that?

I’m amazed nobody has tried it before.

the 16 million you want to ignore

As opposed to the 17 million you want to ignore you mean?

So, outline an alternative to membership that you think would be “more popular” than retaining membership. Go on … just for fun, while we wait for politicians to stop kicking the can…

<span style=”color: #444444; font-size: 12px;”>As opposed to the 17 million you want to ignore you mean?</span>

As soon as May and Davies can present what that looks like we can evaluate if it meets the needs and desires of the 17m, Sound fair?

So, outline an alternative to membership that you think would be “more popular” than retaining membership. Go on … just for fun, while we wait for politicians to stop kicking the can…

Hmm, an alternative to membership that I think would be “more popular” than retaining membership? That’s a tough one…. how abou leaving the EU?

I only wish I could come up with some form of “evidence” that would show this would be a more popular alternative than retaining membership. If only I could think of some form of way we could have gone out and asked people their opinion and decided which was the most popular option before making our minds up?

nope, totally stumped, sorry.

This could be quite long and boring…

Spoiler:

I know people who voted remain who would rather we fell back to EFTA & some sort of CU, than stay a member, and the political consequences of that.

I know people who voted Leave who would rather we stayed members, than worked inside any kind of Single Market or currency union, without a veto.

I know people who voted Leave who want us either to cut all regulatory and legal ties with the EU, or we might as well save any transitional damage/cost by staying members (at least for now).

I know people who voted Leave in the hope of the vote being used as leverage for some kind of more distant membership than we already have… more opt outs if you like… but would rather we kept membership than have no part at all in the SM & CU.

…but the point is, as soon as you propose a model to replace membership of the EU with, while you’d win over many people who voted Remain in the “Membership VS MysteryMeat” referendum (the better the devil you know reluctant remainers who prefer your model), you’d lose (I’d suggest) many more who voted Leave expecting quite a different type of meat was going to be in the mystery box (the this isn’t what I voted for brigade).

nope, totally stumped, sorry.

You and the government, try some details, markets, immigration, borders, flights, nuclear, trade….

If your proposing the cut all ties model then see how many agree with you?

Good job the gov isn’t proposing that mike – except in the minds of the most extreme manipulators of the truth

Oooo so how many support each model? We need another poll as you don’t actually know do you

THM, we’re hoping Ninfan might outline what he wants, and to discuss how much support his suggestion would get… while we wait for the exiting speeches from government ministers planned in the next few weeks that are (so it has been spun) supposed to outline for the first time what the government wants to replace membership with. Or you could save those ministers the effort and tell us now…

(just to get one step ahead, people have tried to support the myth on here by quoting general election results and ignoring the scottish parliament, so please don’t do that again, it’s really silly)

The historical general election results are rather important for general elections. Since those show the same voting methods in use. Its why for example MEP elections are pretty useless for GE.

Yes they were in trouble before but the absolute collapse has an odd overlap with the numbers going to the SNP and the post referendum blame games.

You and the government, try some details, markets, immigration, borders, flights, nuclear, trade…. If your proposing the cut all ties model then see how many agree with you?

no, I’m proposing that we leave the EU.

the precise details of what that might end up looking like, I’m perfectly happy to leave open to negotiation.

to outline for the first time what the government wants to replace membership with.

Non membership? Does that help?

So Leave Regardless 1 Vote.

So Leave Regardless 1 Vote.

No, I think you’ll find it was “leave” 17,410,742

there were no conditions placed on this, it was a vote to leave

i would suggest that anyone seeking to caveat or pre-condition their choice in the way you purport to be valid would be somewhere within the 25,359 rejected ballots.

So, go on, outline the replacement for EU membership that more people would prefer to remaining a member…

No, that was the past, this is the present when we need to flesh this whole thing out, if you don’t care what it looks like then that is fine – 1 Vote. Other people do not agree with you, as shown by the posters in here asking for different things and giving different reasons for leaving.

Is this really a difficult concept to cope with?