i think he has just started being as rude about English leaders as he is about Scottish ones.

@oldman “hard Brexit” is what happens in April 2019 if Parliament votes down the deal. We are definitively leaving whether we have a transition & future trade agreement or even a withdrawl agreement itself – that’s the ultimate mess, we leave without a withdrawl agreement after it’s voted down.

TMH glad to see the EU saying there will be no renegotiation in the event of UK Parliament rejecting the deal, they should be clear the same applies to their vote in Oct 2018. Of course they are backing May as the alternative of a Brexiteer Tory is much worse for them

@igm you are barking up the wrong tree. French youth unemployment is appalling, labour laws mean its hard to fire people and employers are VERY reluctant to hire the young with no/limited experience who they can’t fire if they are not suitable. Also employer taxes are so high they are a real barrier to hiring. Add on top Hollane’s total incompetence in responding to the financial crises and there you have it.

3) We are leaving the door open for some common sense and grown ups to enter the room (well at least some upper sixth formers) and making sure the UK has an out.

For all the talk if impending doom if the Will of the PEOPLE is ignored how does it compare with the impact of Brexit? you know, just asking

molgrips despite all France’s taxes Govt asked that all non emergency surgery was postponed last winter, sound familiar

We’re not talking about France are we?

Stop whatabouting when you have lost a point. Can’t imagine what it’s like playing tennis with you 😉

BTW those pro EU youtube ads I memtioned earlier come direct from the European Parliament. Despite me voting them down they keep appearing. Propoganda pure and simple.

@mols You can’t pass comment on the NHS in isolation, you need to look at the bigger picture,

Yes but are they truthful? We keep voting down the BS but it keeps coming back to the top

@mols You can’t pass comment on the NHS in isolation, you need to look at the bigger picture,

Oh I fully disagree!

That’s what schoolkids say when they’re caught doing something wrong. “But sir, he did it too!” Doesn’t matter, does it?

Just because lots of systems are failing, doesn’t mean it’s ok to fail. If we followed that principle, nothing would get any better. We could all just wallow in mediocrity. Do you do that at work? If your pension funds performed averagely would you just shrug your shoulders and go ‘well they’re doing badly too, so who cares?’ No – you strive to perform as well as you can all the time. Why can’t our government do that?

I’ll let you answer that – I think I know why.

jambalaya – Member
@oldman “hard Brexit” is what happens in April 2019 if Parliament votes down the deal.

You’ve conviniently omitted that there’s a strong legal argument that nothing changes if the UK Parliament rejects any given deal.

The sovereign Parliament that brexiters keep flapping about, the same one that was never not a sovereign parliament.

In the event of no agreement being signed by the relevant parties..

See paragraph 3 of article 50.

Notice of intention, paragraph 2, is simply notice of intent. It’s not an agreement or a legally binding commitment.

Jamba – I’ve heard those anecdotal stories before and if you look at the unemployment rate it’s borne out – but the rate fails to include for those in education so it’s a bad measure for this age group. The unemployment ratio on the other hand does account for those in education and on that the UK and France were similar in 2015 & 2016. France was better than the U.K. in 2014.

Here’s the stats. Feel free to do your usual “the stats are wrong because I met someone once who had a different experience” routine.

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/File:Youth_unemployment_figures,_2007-2016_(%25)_T1.png

jambalaya – Member
BTW those pro EU youtube ads I memtioned earlier come direct from the European Parliament. Despite me voting them down they keep appearing. Propoganda pure and simple.

It’s the Russians making sure you vote In at the next referendum.

Propoganda pure and simple.

Blinkered & one-sided. Some things never change….. 🙄

Notice of intention, paragraph 2, is simply notice of intent. It’s not an agreement or a legally binding commitment.

No role for Jamby in one of the teams THM has doing negotiations#SAD

We are definitively leaving

You seem very sure.

On a more serious note, they’re at it again.

The Tory MP who led rebels to defeat the Government on flagship Brexit legislation has been forced to report death threats to police.
Prominent backbencher Dominic Grieve penned the amendment to the EU Withdrawal Bill, opposed by the Government, which was passed by the House of Commons on Wednesday night.
His successful demand for Parliament to have a “meaningful vote” on any EU divorce deal represents the first defeat for ministers on Brexit legislation.
Both he and the ten other Tory MPs who supported him have faced a furious backlash in the wake of the vote, causing Mr Grieve to express his worries about the nature of the response.
The former attorney general told The Guardian: “The thing that continues to cause me concern is not that people will disagree vigorously with the positions we take.
But that the atmosphere is so febrile that it leads firstly to people not listening to what the debate is about, secondly suggests that any questions around Brexit amount to an intention to sabotage and, thirdly, results in some people expressing themselves in terms that at times include death threats.

It’s going to be the new Christmas hit

Were leaving we are leaving we are leaving
Stick your fingers in your ears we are leaving
Jeremy Corbyn

Repeat as often as needed.

I’m not a conservative but Grieve played an absolute blinder yesterday. Whatever your view of democracy, the primacy of parliament not the executive is paramount. I am sure he and Starmer have had some very interesting discussions.

I can’t believe that more people didn’t follow his lead, or that it came down to some last minute half-arsed grubby offers before the vote.

Taking back control. Just to give it to some ministers. Er no thank you.

The whole point of parliament is to keep a renegade government in check.

It’s currently doing its job, just about.

The irony of all this is that the frothing brexiters are calling the very body designed to prevent totalitarianism, enemies of the people… 🙄

I’m not a conservative but Grieve played an absolute blinder yesterda

An MP with a spine & a Tory to boot???

The unthinkable has happened……

I’m in shock!

But yes, DG has gone up in my estimation.

Has this dropped off the front page? 8)

Those death threats are appealing but I can see it getting worse.

People seem so divided and angry in their opinions (anyone see Question Time?), and there’s simply no way of making everyone happy. A good proportion of the Brexiteers just seem to want to leave with no deal or anything. Leaving with and getting deal with the EU would be in their minds, not “respecting the will of the people”, just as canceling Brexit would.

The irony of all this is that the frothing brexiters are calling the very body designed to prevent totalitarianism, enemies of the people…

I don’t think they do irony.

The language being used by the Brexiteers and their attack dogs in the press has developed a horribly Mccarthyite edge. Yvette Cooper had it about right when she mockingly referred to one of the fruit loops (Bill Cash?) for propagating a new Stalinism

it does seem to be having the effect of galvanising the rebels/traitors/Enemies of the People rather than intimidating them though

Fractures have begun to emerge within UK and EU supply chains ahead of the trade hurdles to be caused by Brexit.

The findings were uncovered in a survey conducted by CIPS drawing on insight from over 1,100 UK and European supply chain managers.

Fears of loss
Surprisingly, almost one in 10 of the responding supply chain managers admit their business has lost contracts due to Brexit. Furthermore, 14% fear parts of their operations will not be viable any longer.

In the space of 6 months, the level of EU businesses that expect to move some of their supply chain out of the UK due to Brexit jumped up by 19% to 63% of the practitioners surveyed

https://www.pharmalogisticsiq.com/news/breaks-in-supply-chains-surface-ahead-of-brexit-0

Blinkered & one-sided. Some things never change….

Open minded and carefully considered all sides, some things will never change

Farage had nothing to do with Vote Leave just in case you forgot. He was instrumental raising issues others tried to ignore and in getting a Referendum thus making him the most succesful and influential British politician of the last 50 years

Farage had nothing to do with Vote Leave

Maybe, but he had plenty to do with the leave vote.

Grieve etc are downright liers, the amendment is absolutely designed to frustrate and complicate the Brexit process in particular with the deliberately vague word “meaningful”. When the Labour Party are serenading you with The Red Flag as you go to vote you should know you are doing the wrong thing.

QT from Barnsley last night

WATCH | This gentleman just won @BBCQuestionTime. #BBCQT pic.twitter.com/86PeN27mBv

— Leave.EU (@LeaveEUOfficial) December 14, 2017

The good news is the EU have said no renegotaition, the bad news is if Grieve, Labour etc vote down the deal we will get WTO with just a few short months to prepare, perhaps less.

Farage had nothing to do with Vote Leave just in case you forgot. He was instrumental raising issues others tried to ignore and in getting a Referendum thus making him the most successful and influential British politician of the last 50 years

Nice try, but we all know whose side he was on!

making him the most successful and influential British politician of the last 50 years

Next you’ll be telling us how compassionate Thatcher was..

Grieve etc are downright liers

Please explain.

What’s happened is Parliament will now have a say on the final deal, which is only democratic.

I 100% support his & others stance since it prevents one party railroading the country.

You’d be spitting teeth if it were labour running the show demanding parliamentary oversight left, right & centre rather than the tawdry shower of sh1te that are the Tories.

At least you’ll have someone else to blame when the country goes tits up.

The good news is the EU have said no renegotaition, the bad news is if Grieve, Labour etc vote down the deal we will get WTO with just a few short months to prepare, perhaps less.

If no deal is agreed the brexit process stops and could default back to full membership, as long as the leaving date is not enshrined by parliment vote next week, no way would parliment uphold a ‘no deal’ WTO scenario.

“3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.”

That’s an imaginative interpretation

More realistically- no deal = WTO not the status quo

It’s not imaginative, therrs not much to interprit, it’s written:

“unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.”

If parliment keeps booting out the agreement, we could well see a perpetual extension.

Is that an a-b=c equation THM? 😉

Nice assertion but it remains to be seen – we can wait to find out.
No one wants the WTO option save a handful of lunatics, so faced with that option a fudge will be found.

#Brinksmanship

No deal = unilateral revocation of A50 and we start from scratch.

@matty and @thecaptain that’s what the amendment was really about, an attempt to create that option, that’s why Grieve etc are liars. He is a Barrister / QC and knows exactly what he is doing. However the route does not exist.

No negotiated deal = WTO most favoured nation status

@matty, thecaptain amd mrleb did you watch the QT clip ?

that’s what the amendment was really about

And here was I thinking it was about parlementary sovereignty, this is what, the second time now May has tried to bypass parliment?

jamba, just the pointless rambling of one voter who represents precisely one vote and one opinion. What about it? If the route to revoking A50 does not exist then you have nothing to worry about.

I am as confused as you seem to be he is a liar but what he lied about cannot happen [ in which case why do you care?]

As for what happens if they reject its speculation which ever view you go with

WHo knows it will all depends on the political winds at the time as they cannot make us stay but they may agree to extend if we dont want to leave on those terms. I dont think its possible to be definitive but we all agree the EU is anti democratic and likes fudges so that tips it slightly to stay [ if we want to ] 😉

@matty, thecaptain amd mrleb did you watch the QT clip ?

& your point is?

What I took from that clip is that gent doesn’t quite understand how a. parliament works & b. what democracy is.

If he thinks he’s going to be better off under the Tories post a a bonfire of regulations protecting him, then he’s in for a massive shock.

If that gent really believes it’s ok, safe & wise to let the Tories dictate the direction of our country without any oversight from Parliament, then he is probably the most naive man I’ve ever come across.

But if you want to run it up the flag as being demonstrative of the current sentiment in the UK…..you’re in for, what I can only describe as, a seismic shock..

Careful, your comments could be taken as implying that he’s not the sharpest tool in the box and we all know what that means…