EU Referendum – are you in or out?

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  • EU Referendum – are you in or out?
  • Edukator
    Member

    Deliberate twisting information Is very bad for informed debate.

    Other people on this thread can read and make up their minds who is “deliberately twisting information” and refusing to recognise the dreadful truths about what (mainly) Tory politicians have been saying and trying to do.

    Sun’s out in paradise, my local taxes have paid to heat an oudoor 50m pool, best go and make the most of the generosity of my fellow citizens and being in a place where profit isn’t the only reason for doing anything and everything. Have a look around you, what do you see?

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
    Subscriber

    They can indeed – your link doesn’t even address the topic under discussion. At best Fallon talks about how a lack of competition harms the supply of credit to smaller firms. You are making up the rest.

    A lovely sunny view, and lots of hard working, talented people who are paid to tell he truth not make things up. Great panorama.

    Premier Icon igm
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    Fallon also talks about markets and competition helping customers then illustrates it (as a good idea!) with an example where government interference allows less efficient but smaller companies to flourish.

    Ed – I don’t think your link really addresses the earlier points. It does expose Fallon as an imbecile though.

    spekkie
    Member

    Talking about “working conditions for labour”, isn’t China the elephant in the room?

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
    Subscriber

    Amazed at Ed’s choice of website. Is that one on his favourites bar?!?

    But no change in terms of distorting reality to make false points. Uk has been at the heart of EU regulation for financial services. London’s position as #1 global financial centre is based on other positive factors

    Premier Icon igm
    Subscriber

    Oh yes, Ninfan. Treaty of Brussels. NATO comes later.

    Airtragic – WWI not as simple as you suggest. Multiple treaties forming a couple of loose webs that over the course of the war might come to be seen as alliances but didn’t start that way. Also my point was about peace within Western Europe (ie particularly UK, Germanic states, France) not going to war every 30 years. NATO does play a part along side ECHR, EU (and predecessors), but even there it arguably started as a political organisation that morphed into a military alliance.

    Armies can win wars, they are less good at keeping people together other than by suppression.

    mrlebowski
    Member

    So we end up with Labour delivering Brexshit – Jezza will be delighted at the strength of the underground momentum

    Long on babble – short on facts..

    I don’t think JC is in any danger of getting the keys to No 10 just yet – but keep spreading the lies..

    Premier Icon igm
    Subscriber

    teamhurtmore – Member
    Amazed at Ed’s choice of website. Is that one on his favourites bar?!?

    Dunno. But I’m tempted to if they lampoon their own folk in that sort of high brow satirical way.

    Oh wait a minute, Fallon wasn’t serious when he wrote something with that big a hole in the fundamental argument was he?

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
    Subscriber

    After all this and the polls suggest that – how bad must the oppo be??

    Premier Icon igm
    Subscriber

    THM – now I know you’re trolling. Quick stick a smiley on it. 😉

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
    Subscriber

    On the contrary – genuine question. We have a gov in disarray on their usual blow up topic (EU) a weakening economy, stagnant real wage growth etc one would not expect polls to be indicating what the link suggests unless the oppo was very weak indeed

    And what’s not to like with a Jobs First Brexshit?

    Edukator
    Member

    how bad must the oppo be??

    at least as bad.

    Genuine non-bickering question to the whole of STW. I haven’t got a UK vote but if I had, which party should some who believes in EU membership, a fair progressive tax system, equality in education and health, a high level of pulic services ans state owneership fo monopoly service providers vote for?

    Britain needs a new political party. France got one in a year, surely this is a opportunity for some enlightened humanists to start a new party.

    Premier Icon hot_fiat
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    edit: random duplicate post

    Premier Icon hot_fiat
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    Edukator, we have that pretty much in the Lib Dems. Unfortunately the masses are of the opinion that they were entirely to blame for every misdemeanour encountered during our brief flirtation with a coalition government.

    tjagain
    Member

    Edukator. SNP

    Premier Icon igm
    Subscriber

    THM – if that poll didn’t support your argument of the morning then you’d be cautioning against looking at one poll. That’s why I’m suggesting you’re playing.

    On the other hand, when you check the right/wrong to leave polls (see questions below) they are all currently (and for many months) pro-remain.
    The government is doing something the country doesn’t want.
    Democracy needs to get its act together.

    If there was another referendum on Britain’s membership of the EU, how would you vote?

    In hindsight, do you think Britain was right or wrong to vote to leave the EU?

    Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union, or leave the European Union?

    Premier Icon nickc
    Subscriber

    surely this is a opportunity for some enlightened humanists to start a new party.

    I genuinely think it wouldn’t get anywhere. Most people (not STW) have made their peace with the fact that we’re leaving. Most can see that there are up and down sides to this, and the “Utopian” views that both sides express on here is just a parlour game, rejoining the EU won’t solve everything (as some seem to think), and when we leave it will will impact the economy and people for 20+ years, and TBH anything could happen in that time, which may make leaving look like either the biggest act of self mutilation or the luckiest swerve in history.

    It was a reckless gamble that history will rightly castigate Cameron for, but for lots of people the EU thing is done.

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    SNP just need a wing that drops the nationalist part, and gets involved across the UK.

    Unfortunately the masses are of the opinion that they were entirely to blame for every misdemeanour encountered during our brief flirtation with a coalition government.

    Yep, those would be the binary thinkers.

    So we end up with Labour delivering Brexshit – Jezza will be delighted at the strength of the underground momentum

    When your only reason for carrying on with the current shambles is that the other lot would be worse it’s not a good sign.

    craigxxl
    Member

    Britain needs a new political party. France got one in a year, surely this is a opportunity for some enlightened humanists to start a new party.

    Totally agree in that we need a centralist party, which is where the Lib Dems should be. I have no faith in any party at the moment so for the first time, since I’ve been able to vote, I can’t find a party I would vote for which would only give me the protest/blocking option which still gives credence to a party I don’t agree with either.
    The problem is that the UK needs a better standard of politician. There are politicians I admire from all parties but none enough to back their party.

    Edukator
    Member

    Lib Dems failed nearly all my criteria the last time I looked at their manifesto and sided with the Conservatives who fulfil non of my criteria at present.

    The SNP do better, TJ. The “N” in the middle makes me feel uncomfortable but Scotland is a lot better on public services, education in particular.

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
    Subscriber

    Semi-playing of course!!

    I’m a remainer – why would I change my vote? But think that you are being selective with your polls (not that it matters)

    Doesn’t matter what I think. I was in the minority. My side lost.

    Leave – we have had two votes on the issue – a referendum and a parliamentary vote – time to execute the results. Not my choice but as above, I’m in the minority here and my side lost the argument. Tant pis but I’m a democrat

    thecaptain
    Member

    Basic problem is our fptp system makes it all but impossible for alternatives to get a look-in. See also USA. Of course the SNP does challenge my view a bit.

    5thElefant
    Member

    Basic problem is our fptp system makes it all but impossible for alternatives to get a look-in.

    Good. Look at the mess we’re in right now with a minority nutter party able to call the shots. I do not want that to be the norm.

    Premier Icon theotherjonv
    Subscriber

    how bad must the oppo be??

    The issue is deeper than that – Corbyn / Labour can’t / won’t stand on a policy of reversing Brexit because 1/ will of the people / undemocratic but particularly 2/ it will alienate swathes of their core vote, the hard-working man that is (gross oversimplification) putting control and immigration above economy and security. So that when the dust is settled they are still relevant to that section.

    So for now they simply aren’t playing….. let the Tories screw it up, and then we’ll see what the polls say.

    It’s wrong because despite understanding and respecting that as a nation we voted out, I’m still of the opinion that as the situation develops we should be able to reconsider if the path we’re following is the right one. And i know the libDems stood on a policy of cancelling the whole show and got no support but – I mean, the LibDems!

    Ed’s calls for a new party are spot on – I said the same 18 months ago – but our politics is too ingrained, too 2 party tribal where people cannot allow themselves to consider other alternatives because it would be a betrayal of their working class / middle class / delete as applicable roots. I had hoped this might be the shake up that would change it, I now suspect not.

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    Good. Look at the mess we’re in right now with a minority nutter party able to call the shots. I do not want that to be the norm.

    Then look at proper coalition, what you have now is a minority government.

    Premier Icon igm
    Subscriber

    Tant pis but I’m a democrat

    Well, sort of.

    Anyway, yes two votes, both prior to the fundamental heart beat of our democracy, the GE, so neither can claim primacy over the present parliament.

    That said parliament are, as you pointed out, lacking in leadership so they will just muddle along on their present course, ignoring the apparent fact that public opinion has changed.

    A link to those selective polls – they’re trackers across a variety of organisations and they’re surprisingly consistent.
    First 4 are probably most interesting.

    https://whatukthinks.org/eu/opinion-polls/uk-poll-results/

    tjagain
    Member

    Edukator – remember the N stands for national not nationalist

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
    Subscriber

    Indeed two sorts

    True
    True when it suits

    I am on the first category 😉
    You?

    Premier Icon jambalaya
    Subscriber

    Intersting to be getting pro-EU ads on YouTube “promoting EU diversity”, doubly interesting that the pro-EU news service Politco.eu is running a “so white” campaign highlighting the all white, all male make up of many EU bodies including those from Germany for example.

    Politco: Brussels is blind to diversity

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    Democracy and referendums etc.
    Picture explanation

    The EU Referendum
    Democracy and real life

    One is a snapshot in time the other is time moving along and things changing (one could say a series of still images put together to create the illusion of movement)
    Stuff changes, you have to deal with it unless you’re a teacher/elbow patched lecturer who doesn’t want to update his handouts an acetate’s

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
    Subscriber

    N stands for not what we do (badly), only what we say (very different eg health and education inequality)

    But at least the SNP might now be looking at raising income tax after all. Bit of a turnaround from being advocates of competing on lower tax rates than rUK. But consistency is not part of their DNA is it!

    Edukator
    Member

    And as of this week there is the promise of democratically elected representatives having a say on the final deal. 12 rebels so far, many more to come I think, I hope.

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
    Subscriber

    We had that last week too

    Premier Icon igm
    Subscriber

    teamhurtmore – Member
    Indeed two sorts

    True
    True when it suits

    I am on the first category
    You?

    Oh I’m in the first category on that basis, not sure about you given you possibly were “true” in July 2016 but not now – I think that’s the second group.

    5thElefant
    Member

    But at least the SNP might now be looking at raising income tax after all.

    That’ll be the end of them next election. 😯

    Edukator
    Member

    So does the “N” in FN, BNP and a few others:

    Nationalist parties in europe

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    5thElefant – Member

    But at least the SNP might now be looking at raising income tax after all.

    That’ll be the end of them next election. [/quote]
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/two-thirds-brits-willing-to-pay-more-tax-to-fund-nhs-poll-kings-fund-a7951361.html

    Two in three Brions are willing to pay higher taxes to order to properly fund the NHS, a new poll has found – a significant increase in the number previously prepared to do so.

    The research, carried out by Ipsos Mori on behalf of the King’s Fund think tank, found 66 per cent of respondents would be happy to pay more “in order to maintain the level of spending needed” for the health service.”

    In contrast, just 20 per cent are in favour of spending cuts to other key services such as welfare and education to boost funding for the NHS, while just ten per cent believe the health service should reduce either its range of services or the level of care to balance its books.
    Not everyone thinks just about themselves

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
    Subscriber

    2/3 willing to pay more
    40% pay none

    Easy to talk about others being taxed more though!! Talk is cheap

    5thElefant
    Member

    Not everyone thinks just about themselves

    No, many people don’t like the idea of the state helping themselves to other peoples money. The selfish are fine with it.

    Premier Icon igm
    Subscriber

    the pro-EU news service Politco.eu

    Jamba – the pro-EU news service Politico.eu (spelling) has according to Wikipedia “maintained an independent stance regarding the affairs of the European Union (EU)” at least under its former name.
    A quick scan of the articles suggest that’s not far off.
    The fact you see it as pro-EU tells us more about you than it, though to be fair you’ve never really hidden your brextremist views (no deal, vote WTO, etc)

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