A more on message question – from a designer perspective how much do you have to commit long term to an ebike motor supplier? Is it possible to design a frame where the addition of a different mounting plate you could switch between different brands? Or order a batch of frames one year with fit one brand of motor and with minimal cad work make the next batch work with a 2nd?

I can’t see that working. Frinstance, the new Bosch system (and batteries) don’t fit into the ‘old’ system, so if one brand can’t manage it….

I also find the bike brand Transition deeply offensive to those considering a change in their gender

@convert

I have to design for a specific motor. Given the extremely long lead times on shimano components right now, you have to design to a specific system and commit to it.

Fortunately most of the shimano motors share the same mounting points, so different shimano options could be offered if they provided us with a significantly different price point.

Having spent a lot of time on the EP8 motor over the last few months, I think that it’s great. Most of the time the eco setting is more than enough assistance.

@P-Jay

I have asked @benpinnick to reply to this, he’s currently having issues logging in to the forum

Typical STW thread.

@danbird – no chance of a Bosch version then? That will rule it out for me unfortunately unless something fundamental changes at Shimano, shame as otherwise would probably be putting my name down for one

I’d be interested to know a bit more about the “options with our partners to allow customers to access the bikes without the high upfront costs of purchase or the maintenance overhead”

We’re looking at a number of options including rental and lease purchasing. I’m not a fan of what ebikes are doing to the pricing in the wider market and how its going to start pricing people out of the market. Combine that with aforementioned issues with lifespan of engines etc. and either leasing, rental or partial ownership makes a lot of sense. For many riders they’re only using it at mostly trail centre sites and so a portable eBike rental that lets you book fully serviced, set up and maintained eBikes from a range of sites across the UK, close to interesting riding sites would suit many riders.

We’re only just starting down that road, but we hope to have a mix of purchase and lease/rental options lined up for launch.

@davesaurusrex not at this time. Unfortunately Bosch weren’t willing to work with us so put themselves out of contention before the race even got started. We’ve been very happy with the Shimano units we have had on test so far with only minimal issues with contacts on the cables which we’ll eliminate through enhanced waterproofing during assembly, and we’ll be sure to work out how to keep them running beyond their 2 year warranty which will likely include some sort of extended warranty option.

If we ever get to the point where we have anything like a “standard” mount for motors… my money would be on the current Shimano mount being the one that sticks the most. Same goes for batteries. Third party batteries that fit Shimano already exist… I don’t think there’s any licensing barrier to third party motors also fitting Shimano mounts. Makes it a wise choice for a bike brand if you don’t have the scale of Specialized.

@davosaurusrex

That’s correct, there won’t be a bosch version. However I’m not sure what the concern is over the shimano system? In my understanding all the E-bike systems available have similar levels of reliability, I’m not aware of any system without some issues.

We went with Shimano for 2 reasons:

1. due to the large number of bike shops who can deal with Shimano warranty and service locally.

2. Bosch have not been taking on any new Ebike customers for a few years now, I have contacted them a few times – they’re always at full capacity and unwilling to sell to someone new.

@convert

You may or may not be right about the entomology of the term ethic.

What does the study of insects have to do with the choice of brand name?

We’ll be offering the new eBike as a frame + motor option and full bike assuming no one tells us we can’t

That would be brilliant. I would have defo looked for a frame and motor option when I bought mine.
As it is, I perhaps paid an artificially high price for a complete(Orbea Wild Fs), where really some of those components are now letting me down(wheels are in self disassembly mode).

Whenever I buy my next eeb, I would love it if there was a frame/motor only option. 👍

My concerns aren’t to do with the reliability. It’s that there’s just no way of fixing or servicing them once the warranty expires. They have to be replaced. And its nearly 1000 pounds to get it fitted by a shop, which you need to do to keep the warranty.

These guys don’t work on Shimano any more https://www.ebikemotorcentre.com/repair-overhaul-upgrades/

It’s unfortunate this all gets aimed at the bike manufacturers, but there’s no direct line of communication between customers and Shimano to say “Hey, why not sell some spares!??”

These guys sell motors to fit Shimano mounts https://www.oli-ebike.com/motors/ so maybe someone else will step in, but Shimano motors have been out a number of years now and still no servicing.

These guys also seem to be developing something that fits Shimano, and even takes a normal replaceable BB, but quite early in development process https://www.lightest.bike/ Pics here https://www.emtbforums.com/community/threads/out-of-warranty-shimano-repairs.9356/page-2

What a great thread. Looking like some interesting developments coming here, watching with interest. Keep the updates coming guys. Is there a waiting list yet?

My concerns aren’t to do with the reliability. It’s that there’s just no way of fixing or servicing them once the warranty expires. They have to be replaced. And its nearly 1000 pounds to get it fitted by a shop, which you need to do to keep the warranty.

Will be interesting to see how Bird’s top notch warranty (first hand experience) and customer service is planning to deal with that.

Is there a waiting list yet?

Afraid not. We’re not likely to open that for some time yet!

My concerns aren’t to do with the reliability. It’s that there’s just no way of fixing or servicing them once the warranty expires. They have to be replaced. And its nearly 1000 pounds to get it fitted by a shop, which you need to do to keep the warranty.

It was for several years the primary reason that stopped us developing an eBike irrespective of who makes the motor. Whether you can get a repair or not the basic 2yr warranty doesn’t really cut it for many people’s use (For others who buy new yearly, its fine of course). We’ll be doing something bespoke therefore, but it’s too early to say exactly what that will be. Certainly though since we’ll hold a stock of motors we’d have way more flexibility than a regular bike brand sold in a shop for example.

Managed to log in at last… been following this thread all morning.
As an owner of a bird frame I’m predisposed to like this bike I think. Looks fine to me. Don’t really care about the logo and the brand name isn’t important. As someone who tends to buy frames and upgrade bits over time rather than whole bikes I’d certainly be interested in the frame and motor option. In fact it is the sort of thing that might influence my buying choices in advance. I have been thinking about a replacement fork on my aether9 so that I can put the fox 34s back on the hardtail. Obvious choice is either a pike at 140 or maybe lyrik perhaps at 150. If I thought I might be looking at a frame only eeb in 2 years I’d definitely go for the lyrik option.
Leasing and other options to buy are interesting too. Good work all round I think.

Hi Dan,

A few qu’s:
Will there be a battery range extender available (aka water bottle mounted)?
How did the lower chain guide survive the 600km? Do u have to run the lower guide?
Assume the ebikes will be pix and mix regarding components like other bird bikes?

Thanks.

@benpinnick best of luck, sounds like you’re putting a lot of thought into this.

@howdoo

Shimano don’t offer any sort of range extender, however I am looking at this option (different battery supplier) for the next Ebike model that I’ll be starting the design process on in the new year.

I’ve actually been through several iterations of both upper and lower guides during testing – everything has been 3D printed in house which has allowed me to rapidly develop several new versions of the parts during testing. The lower guide uses a standard 11t jockey wheel and is easily replaced when needed. It’ll outlast the jockey wheels on your rear mech.

Yes, the lower guide is needed to lower the chain growth on the bottom half of the chain, which reduces the wear on the your side rear mech clutch. It also provides additional chain wrap around the chainring and keeps the chain securely in place.

Yes, the bikes will be pick and mix just like our regular Bird bikes.

Will anyone be re-uploading the video for those who didn’t get a chance to see it?

@sharkattack

No, we can’t re-upload that video, but we will be putting another “first look” video for the Ethic up at some point.

Certainly though since we’ll hold a stock of motors we’d have way more flexibility than a regular bike brand sold in a shop for example.

with a frame only option that definitely interests me if you get something set up like Berkshire Cycles have for Specialized ebikes. However the other bit that interests me is what happens to replaced motors? Seems bloody wasteful if they don’t at least get returned to Shimano for refurb for other warranty replacements. I know the answer from some will be “don’t ride an ebike then unless you have a medical condition”, but they’re too much fun and I’m lazy, sue me. Doesn’t mean I don’t want the downsides minimised where possible

@danbird yeah don’t drag Jamie to England again.

@poah

We were pushed by the weather, no dragging involved!

I also find the bike brand Transition deeply offensive to those considering a change in their gender

please tell me thats a piss poor attempt at a joke.

@danbird
I’ve offered my services to take the Eeb around the trails of Tweedvalley and show my support🤘🏻🤘🏻
I own an Eeb already but when the Ethic is out for sale it will be just in the right timeframe for an upgrade @benpinnick
My Q is what’s the warranty like with Shimano?
On Bosch I’ve had zero issues but I’ve heard that if the motor dies say 3 months before the 2 year warranty is done your NEW motor is only covered for the 3 months left of the original 2 years which is a bloody PITA
Spesh offer a brand new full 4 year warranty with new motors
Just wondering what Shimano offer

Last I heard it was a rolling 2 year warranty but it all seems a bit vague. I have about another 6 months window on this one to find out….

That seems to be standard though…SRAM is the same, if in warranty the replacement part remains warranted for the remain warranty life of the original part. They generally replace as a good will gesture though if the replacement part fails again.

Ben / Dan… Any rough timescales on availability (are we really looking at 2023?). I know it’s early days but when do you think you will start taking pre-orders. Was waiting for stock of the spesh kenevo and you have put a spanner in the works now with this announcement! I may very well have to wait a bit longer now.

Cheers

Also any geo charts yet or too early for that? Guess we pretty much know the ballpark but nice to nerd out over the figures!

On Bosch I’ve had zero issues but I’ve heard that if the motor dies say 3 months before the 2 year warranty is done your NEW motor is only covered for the 3 months left of the original 2 years which is a bloody PITA

My local bosch dealer told me the opposite, they said that you get another two year warranty with any replacements

I had a new bosch motor under warranty at about the 6 month mark, and he said the warranty period restarts.

@julians
Seems conflicting reports
Need to do more digging

@doncorleoni

I was hoping to launch in the 2nd half of 2022, but shimano informed me on Monday that they’ll only be able to deliver in 2023,sometime.

It’s frustrating but we’re seeing similar issues and all our parts. Suspension forks are hard to get right now.

@davosaurusrex

I haven’t put together a proper data sheet yet, we tend to do that just before launch.

Off the top of my head…

HA 63.5 with 170mm fork
SA 77.5 in ML size
Reach 485mm, ML size
CS 440mm in the mullet setup, 448 in full 29″
BB 280mm sagged (it runs 160mm cranks)
160mm rear travel with around 35% rising rate
The idler wheel runs on its own axle, just like a hub, with a lip seal and needle roller bearing on the drive side, unshielded bearing on the non drive, all sat in an oil bath that is filled from the drive side (with a cap to seal it)
Auxiliary seals on the main pivot bearings near the motor

Cheers. Any idea on stack numbers?

To do otherwise with regards frame pricing would be oddly unethical I would say (in the traditionally accepted sense). Forcing people to purchase products they don’t need and at a price they didn’t need to pay in order we squeeze a few more pounds profit on that frame sale.

thanks for responding. i’d not considered your reasons in those terms.

and i’m sorry for my slightly inflammatory post, i was a little tipsy and not fully considered what i was suggesting.

@davosaurusrex

I can’t remember the stack off the top of my head, sorry. In theory you could work it out with the numbers I’ve given, plus the head tube length, which is 120mm on the ML 🙂

I’ll put a geometry drawing together at some point and put it on the Ethic socials

Fascinating thread, thanks to Ben and Dan for their very open contributions. Really interesting to hear just how far in advance a manufacturer has to commit to a particular standard (eg re motor mounts).

On a slight tangent, I do wonder if 2022 will be the year of the ‘compatibility adapter producers’; parts availability will be so poor that making X work with Y could be very profitable!