There is some information out there from Vouilloz who used to run crazy low tension in his wheels to allow for wheel flex as it was faster, and more recently with the Syndicate riders running lower spoke tensions to try & bring some flex into the wheels. Being stiffer doesn’t necessarily mean better in every instance.

Exactly. The Mavic testing with pro XC racers was also really interesting. The wheels were tested blind (not knowing the wheel, rather than wearing a blindfold 😉 ) and the fastest wheel and the one the pros preferred was neither the stiffest nor the lightest. Everything is about balance. You can’t have gains in every aspect of design without some disadvantages in other performance areas.

Anyway, the thread is about another ENVE MTB rim failure. I can’t help thinking that as a company they are kind of missing the mark in their MTB rims for a whole variety of reasons already discussed. As a premium product they set themselves up for perfection which it would appear is not attained, especially compared to other competitors products which is the main thing. The positive is that the latest generation seems like a better step in the right direction. I’m sure I’d be happy to have them (only had a quick ride on a friends set) but for the same money then something like AX SRC CC’s seem much more tempting or for less money then LB rims seem a more than adequate equivalent. No doubt they are good and people are happy but I can’t help feeling there are better alternatives at both ends of the price range.

Two great posts.
Mountain biking seems to be going through the phase motorcycling went through a few years ago where stiffness was the be all and end all….the bikes ended up riding like crap.

Now the designers understand that the rider needs a certain amount of compliance/flex in the frame/forks/wheel/tyre etc etc to give them the fine feel they need to push to the limit of grip and then hold it there without going too far…. on stupidly stiff bikes they were experiencing ‘chatter’ through the front of the bike when cornering and if they pushed through the bikes were letting go with no prior warning and leaving the rider confused as to how the crash occurred.

The thinking at the time was that the fork and shock could take care of all flex/feel needs, they can’t and the bike itself has to ‘give’ a little too for perfect feedback to the rider.

According to ENVE, once the issue was discovered, “We set out to find a solution immediately and ultimately made improvements in a running change to accommodate the added stiffness of the Competition spoke. The end result is a wheel that exceeds the performance criteria we’d established prior to the launch of the M-Series.” We haven’t run into any other structural problems on the new set of wheels, even after hitting the same small drop that did in the original set, plus countless other hard landings and rough trails.

Sounds like the carbon “cant afforders” and “haters” are just looking for another reason to try and justlfy their position…

Kudos to Enve for investigation the issue and finding a solution.. The chances are that, the wheels that were on test, were probably prototypes or early production models. So they may or may not have been up to same standard as the finished articles…

Just like the 650b threads…. just because you cant afford to buy them.. it doesnt mean that they are pointless.. There is a reason that they are available and the people who use them are able to see the benefits. They are lighter, track better and accelerate faster than alloy rims. Put those together and you will see performance increases..

It’s not a question of whether or not they are worth the money.. If you can’t afford them.. You will never know.. Just stop being a whiney little bi*ch and go ride your bike.

peace out.

The spoke tension thing came up before. It is counter intuitive but from everything I’ve read about wheel building, spoke tension does not affect wheel stiffness.

I think it’s a shame about the Enves breaking. Clearly they really want to make the best wheels they can. If you look at them in detail they are not the same as the cheaper carbon rims. The spoke holes, for example are moulded with the fibres flowing around them rather than drilled through the fibres as LB etc do. Whether that kind of attention to detail is worth 6x as much is up to you – its the law of diminishing returns as always.

cookeaa – Member

For MTB use I think there is a way to go, what seems to have happened is that deepmsections and low spoke counts have been transposed from road wheels and they are not hacking it in all situations…

I don’t see it. FWIW mine were a bolt-on replacement for an alu rim I’d mangled, rebuilt with the same spokes because straigtpull revs are not cheap… So really very equivalent to a typical mtb wheel. The second set I’m getting built are deeper but still not like a road deep section wheelset- they’re in line with some metal rims.

The whole bigger/wider thing didn’t start with carbon after all, it’s something people have been doing with metal for years.

Sounds like the carbon “cant afforders” and “haters” are just looking for another reason to try and justlfy their position…

Kudos to Enve for investigation the issue and finding a solution.. The chances are that, the wheels that were on test, were probably prototypes or early production models. So they may or may not have been up to same standard as the finished articles…

Just like the 650b threads…. just because you cant afford to buy them.. it doesnt mean that they are pointless.. There is a reason that they are available and the people who use them are able to see the benefits. They are lighter, track better and accelerate faster than alloy rims. Put those together and you will see performance increases..

It’s not a question of whether or not they are worth the money.. If you can’t afford them.. You will never know.. Just stop being a whiney little bi*ch and go ride your bike.

Haha. Oh wait. Were you being serious?

They are lighter, track better and accelerate faster than alloy rims. Put those together and you will see performance increases..

That’s more about carbon rims, what do Enve specifically do? They’re not lighter. They’re not appearing to be stronger.

Do people look at the enve sticker and go WOW you must be money to burn BOYO

I actually find the whole composite rims thing fascinating, on road bikes I think they work as they are, a straight replacement for an alloy rim in a traditionally constructed, spoked wheel…

The funny thing is last year We looked at a problem for a company who asked how do we make super tuff rims the fact we could make a rim cheap with no chance of it delaminating or destroying itself and was pretty much not epoxy based anymore blew their minds, problem was as with lots of other bike things set up costs and a tech no one had used was too big a jump………the only thing is this has existed for 20 years and the aerospace folks are only just cottoning on, once these appear in the public domain as more of a normal way to do things both the material and method will be used more and more i can guarantee it will be some marketing guff saying awesome

the bike industry likes little steps then at the right time some companies capitalize on that

Tuffs, what about ACS Z Rims?

I don’t own a house. We rent, it’s more cost effective. My priorities are not house purchases (for lots of reasons). But it allows me lots of disposable income to do things I enjoy. I like that lifestyle.

I wouldn’t for one minute ask anyone why they need anything more than what I’ve got. As I understand peoples priorities are different and will justify what they’ve chosen. Isn’t this the global debate from a certain vantage point?

As a film maker/production company we have to deal with people claiming their dslr’s shoot quality as good as our Red Epic cameras – and they’re not worth 10 times as much. Same debate here too. People not understanding what you are paying for and why you chose that more expensive part. Fine, deal with it but most of it is born out a culture of knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing.

(On top of this I have an almost impossible task of not always trying to buy the cheapest as I think there is usually some exploitation going on there with labour or quality control. It’s a tricky principle to deal with but I don’t believe the world is better for sweatshop/tat. Not that I’m putting everything in that category that we’re debating.)

Seems to me there appears confusion between what people can afford and what people are prepared to pay based on benefit and value for money.

Im not a ‘can’t afforder’, i’m not rich but I have spent way more than the cost of a set of Enve rims on my hobby so far.

If someone could prove to me that they’d make me go noticably faster than on an equivelent pair of LB rims then I’d probably buy a set tomorrow. But they can’t, because they won’t. And at 6xs the price thats why I think they are a waste of money.

That said I have nothing against people buying them, just don’t try to pretend they are considerably better than kit at a fraction of the price.

^^ this. Totally.

I could get carbon wheels, but really, really struggle to justify the almost 10x the cost a set of hope hoops would cost me. Though i have a similar mentality when it comes to groupset/frames etc etc.

I’m glad to see some STWers are making some sensible comments in terms of stiffness, wheels make up part of your “compliance system”, for want of a better phrase. Is the bike already stiff? stiffer wheels might be too much.

Then what is stiff or too stiff is different for everyone.

10% faster 🙄 road sprint on smooth tarmac?

I could get carbon wheels, but really, really struggle to justify the almost 10x the cost a set of hope hoops would cost me. Though i have a similar mentality when it comes to groupset/frames etc etc.

But they’re not. Enve rims are 10x the price of Stan’s, but LB, Derby et al are more like 1.5x the price. The question isn’t so much “are carbon rims worthwhile”, it’s “are Enve rims worth 6x as much as other carbon alternatives, which are invariably lighter”. I remain unconvinced on the latter, and most of the defences seem to be about the “if you can’t afford them wah wah wah…”. See Rone’s post.

in what way and which rims? just curious
I explained about the U.S.E rims ?

I meant in what way did they feel different as you didn’t go in to a huge amount of depth, and I was wondering if your experience was any wider than those two brands and models or if you had any thoughts on others

The one thing it seems to be hard to get with carbon rims is actual real world info and opinions from people who have tried a decent variety of products over a decent time. Many people have tried a fair few normal alu rims over their biking time but in some part due to cost, and in another due to the relative age of he technology there isn’t such a wealth of info on the carbon products, lots of people with limited experience of just he product they have purchase or limited ride time but rarely a wide cross section of products over a decent length of time

Enve are awesome at marketing, right place right time right publicity, doesnt mean they are an awesome composites manufacturer,well at least not a league apart of any of the others IIRC the head honcho was a great marketing bod they learned composites on the job

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2io596_7U9o[/video]