Viewing 36 posts - 1 through 36 (of 36 total)
  • Endurance roadie bike, am I missing the point in geo?
  • Premier Icon IvanMTB
    Full Member

    Hi,

    Am I missing some point re endurance roadie bikes geo, please correct me if I am?

    I always had in mind that endurance road bike should offer slightly more relaxed position, slightly more riding stability and perhaps more compliance generated comfort.

    Browsing through some numbers I realized that majority of the bikes I came across seems to be fitting the bill in regards to first point. Longer head tube, perhaps shorter top tube. Third point is always hotly advertised by brands and I’m rather skeptical about at as best comfort giver is in my mind 28-32c tyre with 55-45PSI inside.

    However I seems to be missing something re riding stability. Always thought that is to be chiefly aided by longer rear stays and overall wheel base.

    However when I’m pouring over geo charts it seems to be they are close to standard, road bikes 405-410mm and rear stays.

    Is that not a thing anymore? And I’m getting transfixed on some old, now defunct wisdom?

    Cheers!
    I.

    Premier Icon footflaps
    Full Member

    However I seems to be missing something re riding stability.

    Have you ever ridden a road bike and thought ‘Woah!, This is really unstable.’?

    Can’t say I ever have and all my road bikes have been thoroughbred race bikes.

    Premier Icon paton
    Free Member

    Largely depends on the fashions that you want to follow.

    Premier Icon IvanMTB
    Full Member

    Yes I did. Also was owing few of them. As well as some more do-it-all bikes like Charge Plug 3 or something along these lines.

    And yes, there was significant difference in ease of direction changing between short wheel based Cube Attain and Plug or even my current Whyte Cornwall. Also in regards to shorts stays for/aft motion of short stayed bike over longer bumps and lumps is giving me mild sea sickness feeling, from the lack of better word, that is less pronounced on the bike with 435mm stays…

    Cheers!
    I.

    Premier Icon andrewh
    Free Member

    Probably overthinking it, if it’s comfy for you it’s comfy.

    My TT bike for example is set up for 10/25 mile TTs. I raised the bars 20mm to do a 24hr, as that’s as high as it would go. Took the drop bar bike as a spare, expecting to use it when my back got sick of the TT position but it never did and I was fine. Comfy is comfy.

    Premier Icon kerley
    Free Member

    You probably should be looking at tourers rather than endurance if stability is what you are after. Your stability is my dullness and an endurance bike is still a road bike after all so don’t want it to handle like a tourer.

    Premier Icon matt_outandabout
    Full Member

    Largely depends on the fashions that you want to follow.

    This.

    And road biking is even more driven by fashion and culture than MTB is in my experience. Even more marketing BS and myths perpetuated.

    Premier Icon IvanMTB
    Full Member

    Okikoki, looks like I might just go down the road of gravel bike with limited capacity, like up to 40c.

    That might be better bet than trying to push endurance road bike with my expectations.

    Gravel with light bits should probably do trick for me.

    Thanks!

    Cheers!
    I.

    Premier Icon chakaping
    Full Member

    Is that not a thing anymore?

    Correct, kind-of.

    Endurance bikes have been converging with normal road bikes, which have also been converging with aero road bikes.

    It’s a good thing IMO, as someone who likes a snappy handling bike but appreciates a bit of comfort.

    I also think you’ve hit the nail on the head about the tyres doing the bulk of the work, thus enbaling this trend.

    So it’s actually function driving the change, as much or more than fashion. IMO.

    Premier Icon Aidy
    Free Member

    However I seems to be missing something re riding stability. Always thought that is to be chiefly aided by longer rear stays and overall wheel base.

    It’s more about head tube angle (and thus trail), imo.

    Premier Icon Kuco
    Full Member

    I find my Roubaix stable as anything but saying that I also found my Cannondale Supersix was also very stable.

    fashion and culture than MTB is in my experience. Even more marketing BS and myths perpetuated.

    I disagree with this, nothing can top the BS that comes from MTB product lines. And as for fashion and culture, nothing can surpass gravel riding at the moment.

    Premier Icon JollyGreenGiant
    Free Member

    I have a Supersix and a Defy.
    The Supersix is as comfortable as the Defy , very stable and a lot more engaging to ride .

    Premier Icon Kuco
    Full Member

    Totally agree with the comfort of the Supersix. Considering it was an all-out race bike it must be one of the comfiest road bikes I’ve ever owned.

    Premier Icon onewheelgood
    Full Member

    I’ve got a Defy Pro. When in Mallorca I hired a TCR. Felt pretty much the same – certainly wouldn’t have been able to tell which was which without looking. Another time in Mallorca I ended up with a Pinarello Gan, which felt both flexier and less stable than either of the Giants.

    Premier Icon stanley
    Full Member

    Hi @ IvanMTB
    I’m in a similar position. Looking to buy my first new “road” bike in almost 20 years. I narrowed it down to endurance or gravel… but think I’m homing in on a lighter/racier gravel bike. I’m after comfort, speed, the ability to go a bit off-road and comfort.
    Definitely want a 2x system, need to be able to fit full mudguards for Winter, and I don’t think I want any gimicky suspension. I think!

    Premier Icon MrSmith
    Free Member

    It’s a good thing IMO, as someone who likes a snappy handling bike but appreciates a bit of comfort.

    I also think you’ve hit the nail on the head about the tyres doing the bulk of the work, thus enbaling this trend.

    I agree. I bought a ‘winter bike’ so I could have proper guards 28’s but still wanted it to behave like a proper road bike and not be a heavy ponderous barge.
    Bike is a Bowman Weald and while wheelbase is longer the contact points are in the same place as my summer bike (Pegoretti) is it as comfortable? No, it’s not steel and 2.7k for the frame either. Does it handle well? Absolutely, I’ll happily ride this all year round and wouldn’t think twice about doing some big miles on it.
    Glad I didn’t end up with something that passed as ‘endurance’ or ‘winter’ from years back.

    Premier Icon benman
    Free Member

    I agree with most of what has been said above. My first ever road bike was an Endurance bike (Synapse) as coming from MTB it seemed less scary. I then bought a more racey bike the year after (Supersix) which was better than the Synapse in every way, and just as stable and comfortable.
    All of my bikes since then have had racey geometry. Even my winter bike.

    Premier Icon IvanMTB
    Full Member

    More pouring, poking and sniffing this evening…

    Probably will end up with Ribble CGR SL and light wheelset.

    Or even two wheelsets to make it more dual duty.

    For my usages I don’t need anything roadie-road. Not a member of club, not racing, not chasing KOMs etc…

    Just need something stable but reasonably swift.

    Looks like Ribble will fit the bill…

    Cheers!
    I.

    Premier Icon w00dster
    Full Member

    Hmmm, not sure I agree with what is being said here.
    My Domane is an endurance bike. It’s an absolute amazing mile munching machine. It’s probably the most comfortable road bike I’ve ridden. The stability may make it almost barge like, in particularly compared to my other bikes, it’s certainly less fun. It’s very confidence inspiring riding on wetter roads, not just the tyres but the bike is just so stable. On rough road, even light off road it’s pretty amazing.
    My summer bike is the new Emonda, it’s “flickable” and so much fun. The steering is almost twitchy, but that’s what I like about it. For fast riding it’s great to ride. My Canyon Aeroad is exactly the same, fast and almost twitchy.
    My gravel bike is a bit boring on the road. Position is quite upright so in a head wind is more hard work than normal. Reminds me of when I would ride my full sus at Thetford, complete overkill that sucked the life out of it.

    I’ve had two supersizes, very very good bikes. But not comparable to a Domane in stability terms. If I was buying a road bike now I’d pick the Supersix (older rim model) over the Domane, but if I wanted an “endurance” bike it would be the Domane.

    Premier Icon w00dster
    Full Member

    Just to add, my Domane is not as fast as my Emonda, but it’s not a slow bike. It’s not the lightest, but with a 50/34 and an 11/32 I’ve got some PR’s on the Domane on 40 min climbs.

    Premier Icon didnthurt
    Full Member

    If I was in the market for a do it all road bike I’d probably go for the Trek Checkpoint. I have a Trek Crockett and really enjoy riding it off and on-road. The checkpoint shares a lot of similarities to the Crockett but with mounts for luggage and mudguards. Plus they have sliding dropouts so you can play around with the chain tube length or even singlespeed it.

    I’ve tried a few different road bikes over the years and prefer racey geometry, would like to try a nice endurance bike though for comparison.

    Premier Icon jameso
    Full Member

    Depends what fit you want/need. A race geo bike with a high bar position and more upright riding position can have poor cornering handling traits imo. If the higher bar position is needed then a more relaxed front end and longer wheelbase may work better overall.

    Race bikes can feel faster if they’re stiffer and more responsive. ‘Responsive’ isn’t something that only improves as it increases though. I wouldn’t say race geo is automatically twitchy but it can be, in the same way that a bike with an eased-off front end geo and a 420-425mm chainstay can still feel very well balanced and fast for different reasons. Personally I prefer the slightly backed-off geometry for being a little more composed over bad roads or on fast descents, or when you’re tired. Endurance can be 6hr rides or it could be a 400km Audax. For 6hrs a race bike is fine, maybe less so for the longer distances.
    All just depends on what sort of feedback you want from the bike. -1/2 or a full degree on the HTA and +10 to 15mm on the chainstay won’t make any difference to a bike’s speed/efficiency but it does fine-tune the responses.

    Probably will end up with Ribble CGR SL

    Very similar to the Arkose geo. I did some big rides in Taiwan on the 2nd gen Arkose on 28mm tyres. Really liked that bike for long days among big hills. It never had the feel of a bike that belonged in a bunch (neither have I as a rider) but was neutral enough, on fast descents the geometry and those 1st Shimano hydro discs were a revelation.

    Edit, to get back to your original q … A longer stay should balance out a more relaxed front end. Backing off the HTA a bit pushes the FC out, so add a bit to the chainstay to keep the weight distribution consistent. You could also do some of that with a steeper seat angle, which is generally said not to be a good thing on a bike you’ll be pedalling for a long time – but if the bars come up and back a bit also it can work fine.

    Premier Icon convert
    Full Member

    What are your goals for you and the bike OP? Are we talking 600km audaxs, maybe a stab a some transcontinental multi day warm up races? Or are we talking the usual 3-5hr Sunday ride in a bit more comfort? Or somewhere between the two?

    Premier Icon akira
    Full Member

    It’s not just about frame geometry, I see plenty of people with super low aero bike fitted with all the headset spacers and seem flipped over to give extra rise. Aero bikes look good so people buy them then realise they want something else.

    Premier Icon 13thfloormonk
    Full Member

    I see plenty of people with super low aero bike fitted with all the headset spacers and seem flipped over to give extra rise. Aero bikes look good so people buy them then realise they want something else.

    Meh, I’m becoming more and more sympathetic to this sort of thing. Modern life does not seem conducive to good lower back flexibility,so perhaps a lot of people just can’t get that low at the bars, which is all the more reason to go as aero as possible elsewhere! 😎

    I think my ideal bike would be 50mm wheels, super slippery frame and TT bars (albeit bars level with saddle ☹)

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Full Member

    I always thought it was just that the bars are slightly higher on endurance road bikes (for the same number of spacers) and maybe half a degree off the HA. It’s minimal. The biggest difference between that and the aero bikes is the head tube stack, frame tube profile and the build it comes with I think.

    Premier Icon chakaping
    Full Member

    I always thought it was just that the bars are slightly higher on endurance road bikes (for the same number of spacers) and maybe half a degree off the HA. It’s minimal.

    Yeah, and often the chainstays would be a bit longer too.

    But some of the headtubes were really tall, and there appears to have been a move away from that.

    I think Jameso implied above they can make the steering feel light and sketchy, I remember having to slam the stem on my old Defy.

    He also makes a good point about modern “race” road bikes being more than comfortable enough for your typical two-to-six hour ride. And many may be more comfortable than “sportive” bikes from six or seven years ago, I’d wager.

    Mainly because of the 28mm tubeless tyres, but also race bike geometry may have relaxed just a touch as well.

    Premier Icon thisisnotaspoon
    Full Member

    The rear stay length is just a function of tyre nd guard clearance surely? So if you look for a race bike that’ll take a 28mm tyre and an “endurance” bike that’ll take a 32mm tyre, they’ll probably be within 4mm of each other.

    And as mentioned above, comfortable is comfortable, most sportives are no longer than a race. And most racers don’t want to fall off an unstable bike.

    My “racing” bike is almost 20 years old, takes 28mm tyres (just!), is comfortable, and doesn’t fall over if you leg go of the bars.There’s nothing new under the sun.

    Premier Icon IvanMTB
    Full Member

    What are your goals for you and the bike OP? Are we talking 600km audaxs, maybe a stab a some transcontinental multi day warm up races? Or are we talking the usual 3-5hr Sunday ride in a bit more comfort? Or somewhere between the two?

    Just riding. 1 hour around the block or 9+ hours around and about.

    No races, no crits, no clubs…

    No silly PF bottom bracket, mudguards is a must as it will be doubling as a commuter.

    Whyte Wessex also fits the bill, but need to be bought as a whole bike that I’m not so keen on.

    Cheers!
    I.

    Premier Icon chakaping
    Full Member

    The rear stay length is just a function of tyre nd guard clearance surely?

    Jameso’s comment above about longer stays complimenting a slacker HA for stability chimed with me, because it’s just like we’re talking about enduro bikes.

    😀

    Premier Icon thisisnotaspoon
    Full Member

    Jameso’s comment above about longer stays complimenting a slacker HA for stability chimed with me, because it’s just like we’re talking about enduro bikes.

    But what if I want more pop and manual from my road bike?

    Can I fit a 650b rear wheel with a 32mm tyre for comfort with slammed chainstays and a 700×28 up front?

    Premier Icon chakaping
    Full Member

    Careful what you wish for.

    Mullet gravel bikes are probably already slated for 2022.

    Premier Icon jameso
    Full Member

    because it’s just like we’re talking about enduro bikes.

    It’s almost like all bikes need fore-aft weight distribution to be good to ride well : ) and roadies knew this a long time ago.
    Next we may be onto why bikes usually all have the same stays across size ranges, or classic Italian vs Cervelo R+S geometry – Colnago and other road brands were using variable CS lengths and angles across the size range, Cervelo just made the front end longer per size with reach as justification.

    Mullet gravel bikes are probably already slated for 2022.

    Gravel/Road Boost, 700C.

    Premier Icon intheborders
    Free Member

    Probably will end up with Ribble CGR SL and light wheelset.

    Or even two wheelsets to make it more dual duty.

    FWIW my On One Free Ranger will happily run a 700x50c gravel tyre, and I’ve also 700x28c slicks on another wheelset.

    Premier Icon cookeaa
    Full Member

    Jameso’s comment above about longer stays complimenting a slacker HA for stability chimed with me, because it’s just like we’re talking about enduro bikes.

    It makes sense to me, but ultimately I think it now comes down to accommodating bigger tyres and maintaining rider positioning/weight distribution/handling. Hence the Arkose makes a good case study probably. “Endurance” on a road bike means more tyre volume now, right?
    It certainly feels like we’re heading towards the next generation of “Endurance/Adventure road” bikes, where the default tyre size is going to be 622x32mm (+/-5ish?) but they’re not gravel bikes! (They kind of are).

    While their predecessors were designed around 622x25mm (ish) that extra 7~8mm radially will probably have a bigger impact that people initially realise, plonking bigger diameter wheels in the same geometry creates a marginally increased likelihood of toe overlap, nudges the BB higher and affects fork trail.

    So there is a need to push the front axle forwards a shade with a combination of slacker HA, longer TT (with shorter stem) and maybe even messing with fork length and rake. As well as either moving the rear axle further back and/or cheating some tyre clearance with clever stays/lower seat tube.

    You may also end up needing to increase BB drop…

    All to keep the rider in about the same relative position(s), and preserve handling characteristics as wheel/tyre diameter increases…

    The net result is bikes that are a few mm/degrees different in almost every dimension from their “racy” forbears but actually feel quite familiar from a handling perspective, and importantly should be more comfortable over longer distances… Discuss.

    Premier Icon matt_outandabout
    Full Member

    Mullet gravel bikes are probably already slated for 2022.

    <span style=”font-size: 0.8rem;”>Gravel/Road Boost, 700C.</span>

    Seeing as 27.5 to 29er/700c has fast rolling advantages, I see 750c/32er forthcoming with boost hubs for regaining the wheel stiffness.

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