1. Why?

2. Peter Sagan!?

Answer to Q2 – Tom Pidcock?

1. Because it’s the most important bike category for many brands, so they want some racing.

2. Because said brands are happy to pay probably!

1. Because it’s the most important bike category for many brands, so they want some racing.

Yeah, having followed bike racing and motorsports for a long time, I think the rules they use for equipment in eMTB make the competition an absolute joke.

Either you do a one-make series so everyone is on the same equipment and it’s (mostly) a test of rider skill and fitness. Or you make some rules to limit the power output (homologated batteries that limit the Watt hours would be the most obvious) and allow anyone to design their bike and motor based on those rules, thus testing both the rider and the designer. And most importantly it pushes the technology forward so we can all have better e-bikes.

This limiting it to approved manufacturers kills innovation and means the riders aren’t on a level playing field. It’s a joke and awarding Rainbow Stripes for it kills any argument that the Rainbow Stripes have any real meaning.

1. Why?

Because lazy people is a big market 😉

I wish I understood what the (equipment) rules were. Anyone got a link or an explanation?

It looks like fun TBH, having seen the course in real life, I’d be needing a enduro-esque bike and tyres; adding a motor is the only way to make that viable.

Have you seen the EWS-e racing. That’s damn impressive stuff (and they have a timed uphill (can’t remember what it’s called)) . Maybe the XC will be like that. All a different sport really when it’s motorised though, no getting away from it.

I wish I understood what the (equipment) rules were. Anyone got a link or an explanation?

According to the 2022 World Championships competition guide:

In order to ensure races respecting the rules, only bikes respecting the EN15194-2017 norm equipped with
engines brands allowing strict checks will be allowed to the start. In accordance with the regulation mention
in the preceding point, only “Pedelec” e-bikes will be allowed for these World Championships.

So then we go find EN15194-2017:

http://106.38.59.21:8080/userfiles/4ed4004e06bb468cae5fc74d866cf308/files/teckSolution/2020/06/BS%20EN15194-2017%20Cycles_Electricallypowerassistedcycles_EPACBicycle.pdf

And the you build a bike that fulfills these requirements. Simple. We just have to ignore the fact that these rules were designed for people wanting to sell ebikes in the EU and have nothing to do with creating a more level playing field for competitors while allowing designers to push ebike technology forward.

It’s definitely not a stitch up to obstruct anyone but the big manufacturers from joining the party, nosiree

1. Why?

Indeed.

It’s definitely not a stitch up to obstruct anyone but the big manufacturers from joining the party, nosiree

Can’t tell if that’s Poes law or not?

It’s basicly saying that the e-bikes must be the legal versions with 250w power, 15.5mph cut offs etc. And no Surrons or KTM freeride.

It’s basicly saying that the e-bikes must be the legal versions with 250w power, 15.5mph cut offs etc.

seems to be the case. most of the manufacture’s “full power” offerings are aiming to meet this legal requirement – because why wouldn’t you. (The almost separate emerging category of Lightweight bikes disregarded)

Any ebike experts able to say what size battery you will need for a ~50 minute race if you left it on full/turbo?

That link also contained the e-bike course. They have ditched the two fairly open climbs of the XCO in favour of climbing one of the descents. Should remove most of the opportinuty for just sitting and letting the motor do the work.

That link also contained the e-bike course. They have ditched the two fairly open climbs of the XCO in favour of climbing one of the descents. Should remove most of the opportinuty for just sitting and letting the motor do the work.

I watched it online out of a strange curiosity at a previous event, there’s tactic’s involved as a lot of the field can easily cover the climbs at >250W. Unlike the average eMTB rider using it for a boost they’re choosing when to back off and let the motor take over and they get some recovery, or the very steepest fire roads where the riders could go flat out, and the motor could go flat out, and they’d still not hit 15.5mph.

Can’t find the course length for this – the men’s winner completed it in 52 minutes. I’d be interested to see the average speed… 🤣🤔

There is so much opportunity here for MTB vibed WipeOUT racing.

All the bikes are dumb but you have to ride over special pads on the course to give you power for a certain length of time, with a certain timeout (like a mariokart pickup).

Equally the commentators can award powerups to racers for doing tricks. A backflip gets you a full lap of turbo power assist.

Can’t find the course length for this – the men’s winner completed it in 52 minutes. I’d be interested to see the average speed… 🤣🤔

UCI results page on pink bike. Average speed Men 18km/h, women 17.2km/h. I assume thats the winners average speed?

For contrast, the XC team relay, where each rider rode for only 11 to 12 minutes, the winning swiss team were 16km/h. Nino was about 17.9km/h by my maths. Different course though.

It’s basicly saying that the e-bikes must be the legal versions with 250w power, 15.5mph cut offs etc. And no Surrons or KTM freeride.

There’s any number of ways they could implement that (which would be far better than the non-sensical maximum power limit which uses a minimum power measurement but that’s another discussion).

Motorsport consists mostly of categories where limits are placed on the design and engineers come up with innovative ways to test the boundaries of the rules without breaking them and coming up with ingenious designs that can benefit all car drivers once these innovations trickle down to the consumer level (or at least that’s how it used to be).

The rules for ebike racing are incredibly onerous and have nothing to do with racing but are instead designed so that only big manufacturers can fulfill the requirements.

It’s not a race designed to provide a level playing field so that the best rider wins. It’s not a race with sensible design limitations that forces engineers to create innovative solutions and thus improve ebikes for everyone.

It’s a joke of a series and having it as a World Championship event devalues the Rainbow Jersey.

Admit the “power limit” is a bit a nightmare… but currently the rules as they stand (yes I did read through that whole document you linked above) seem to make the design limitations to correspond to be the “best european legal eMTB”.

so what

sensible design limitations that forces engineers to create innovative solutions and thus improve ebikes for everyone.

do you want?

1. Why?

Indeed.

Could say the same about lawnmowers.
If it moves, it gets raced.
Simple. 😊

so what do you want?

I think I want them to decide what it is that’s being tested. Is it a test of rider skill and fitness in which case all the riders need to be on the same equipment (or at least the same motor and battery).

Is a test of rider and engineer in which case they need to create some design limitations and allow the engineers to innovate without going beyond the rules and hopefully coming up with improvements that will eventually benefit the consumers. For example, you specify that a datalogger has to be fitted to the bike that measures the voltage and current. You say that there is a peak power output that can be applied to the motor and a maximum number of Watt hours that can come from the battery and then let every manufacturer and homebuilder crack on with whatever they can come up with within those limits.

eMTB racing is fine and I think it’s good for the sport, just not the way they are going about it. This is a very young discipline and if they were using these rules to test out the format and figure out how things are going to work then that would be fine but that’s not the case.

This is the World Champs. They’re awarding a Rainbow Jersey for this mess.

Surely the winners would be too embarrassed to actually wear the rainbow jersey anywhere else? Straight in the back of the wardrobe.

I’ve not seen the XC but the Enduro is absolutely brutal. Obviously it favours lighter riders, same as horse racing, and it is all W/kg and bike handling but accepting those limits I think it’s brilliant. The bike handling on the climbs is really impressive too. If the XC follows the same format, ie crazy climbs and technical DH then I think it is pretty interesting. I certainly wouldn’t be ashamed to wear the stripes if I could keep up with those guys and girls!!

Are they not road-legal eMTBs according to EU law? If so, that’s the technical limitation. And with the limited power and max speed with assistance it’ll take a rider with fitness and skills to make them go fast.

So what’s the issue?

Well all the bikes would have to have the same ‘E’ spec for a start. Otherwise it’s a joke. Slapping in a 1500w battery as far as I know would be road legal, and you’d just spend the whole race in ‘Boost’ or whatever, Vs someone who has a conventional production battery (5-900w) who’d get destroyed. IIRC the laws have more to do with speed restriction than anything else.

So what’s the issue?

The problem, and it’s a problem with with EU ebike laws in general, is that 250 W continuous power is a minimum power measurement, not a maximum. What it means is that you can run the motor at 250 W forever and it’ll be fine until the bearings give out. In theory, it also means that if you run it at 251 W then eventually the motor will overheat.

It has nothing to do with Peak Power. Peak power could be 500W, 750W, 1000W etc. Anyone who has ridden a few different ebike motors will tell you that the levels of torque can vary massively between motors yet they are all officially the same power.

So we know that the competitors are not competing using equal equipment. Some are going to have a significant advantage over others. That’s not necessarily a bad thing. It’s basically just motorsport.

Motorsport is a test of rider/driver and engineering skills. Take a look at the technical regulations for the 750 Clubs Formula Vee:

https://www.750mc.co.uk/ugc-1/1/1/0/be1d433f-053b-4a3a-83e9-15ce5fd73377.pdf

It manages to convey all the relevant technical requirements in 5 pages, for a vehicle that is far more complicated than a ebike. Anyone could design and build their car based on these regulations and turn up and race.

Compare that to the regulations for ebike racing. Just gathering the required documents is going to cost you thousands of pounds. Then, in order to meet the requirements, it’s going to cost you tens of thousands to travel to test facilities in order to have everything checked.

They are not regulations that were designed so that engineers can compete to find the best solution to the problems involved in building better ebikes for racing. They are regulations specifically designed to exclude outsiders and ensure only manufacturers are allowed to take part.

So it’s not a test of rider, it’s not a test of engineering, it’s nothing but a parade of the bikes manufacturers want to sell you without them having to go through the bothersome process of actually competing with true innovators.

And the UCI goes along with it and gives them a Rainbow Jersey because they are a corrupt organisation that doesn’t care about innovation and doesn’t even really care that much about fair competition. They like money and that’s about it.

I totally agree BruceWee.

As a phat bassa I still wouldn’t dream nor will ever ever give in to bs ebikes.

Don’t care if it means going bit faster or for longer.

Imho they are a money making machine and damage the planet in the manufacture and use of the things. It’s a Devils invention.

Well it was good to watch. At the end of the day, who cares, it looks fun, stop being miserable gits.

As a phat bassa I still wouldn’t dream nor will ever ever give in to bs ebikes.

Don’t care if it means going bit faster or for longer.

Imho they are a money making machine and damage the planet in the manufacture and use of the things. It’s a Devils invention.

TBH, I like the ebikes (I used to use them all the time for commuting with the trailer) and I really like the idea of an e-mtb (just need a spare 10K).

I even like the idea of emtb racing. I think it’s got a lot of potential.

Well it was good to watch. At the end of the day, who cares, it looks fun, stop being miserable gits.

Like I said earlier, if they were just figuring out how to set up emtb races and it was just some folk spending a weekend racing that would be one thing. However, this is the World Champs. It’s supposed to mean something.

I’m with Brucewee on this one.

People here know I have issues with e-bikes (or rather poor etiquette) but as a competitive sport I’m fine with it.

This isn’t it though, it’s anti-competitive as far as I’m concerned. For anyone doubting what he’s saying here’s a link to an English copy of EN15194-2017, a bargain at €140.

https://standards.iteh.ai/catalog/standards/cen/c9b5ac0f-0728-4674-b9ab-73f4bb33f932/en-15194-2017

If you bought it straight from BSi or EN then that would be £346 or €411 respectively. That’s just to read and understand the 135 page supporting info. Then, as said, you need to have it tested and approved. How many privateers or even small companies are going to have the deep pockets to do that?

Because lazy people is a big market 😉

Have you gears on your bike or are you singlespeed ?.

2) they’ve had motors in the tour for years, so he’s used to it

snarf

…It’s basically just motorsport…

^^Is kind of my feeling on it, and I’m increasingly less interested in motorsport as time goes on.

Still it’s fine if the cycling industry has found a new market and needs to invent a new pretend sport to promote their wares I suppose, but (as I said on the same thread for last last years “Championship”) let’s not pretend it’s a true Rainbow Jersey event.

It’s proper racers doing some promotional work to meet an obligation to their sponsors. The main goal is to persuade dentists and bankers to part with £10k of their disposable income…

Well they have a motor so it is clearly motor sport, just as eF1 is a motorsport. Yes, you need to be very fit, the fittest?, and have the skills necessary to win just as you do in F1, MX, trials etc,. but still a motorsport. Look at it like that and what is the big deal?

Anyone got a link to watch from this year?

1 because ebikes are the future.
2 never heard of him.

Look at it like that and what is the big deal?

Compare the Technical Regulations for pretty much any class of motorsport with the Technical Regulations for ebike racing and the issue should become clear very quickly.

The fact that to even read the Technical Regulations of ebike racing is going to cost you close to £1,000 should tell you all you need to know.

In motorsport, anyone should be able to read and understand the rules, build their vehicle, and then go racing. In ebike racing you are forced to go to a shop and buy a £10,000 bike that may or may not be as good as the ones the people you are competing against have (without taking each and every one to a single test track and comparing them side by side you’ll never know for sure) and then go racing.

As has been said already, it’s not a race. It’s a parade to encourage dentists to part with lots of money. Which is absolutely fine but there is no way the ‘winner’ should get a Rainbow Jersey for it.

Doesn’t seem a big deal to me but you are clearly (overly) concerned about it by the look of it.

In motorsport, anyone should be able to read and understand the rules, build their vehicle, and then go racing. In ebike racing you are forced to go to a shop and buy a £10,000 bike that may or may not be as good as the ones the people you are competing against have (without taking each and every one to a single test track and comparing them side by side you’ll never know for sure) and then go racing.

You don’t turn up for a BSB race with a home built bike, it needs to be based on a bike from the list. Page 12 shows the list:

https://www.msvracing.com/media/6195/bsb-v2.pdf

True, there are stock classes (although most of these are series designed to make motorsport affordable and not necessarily fair).

The crucial difference is that the link you provided has sections that give you the displacements and minimum weights along with a host of other information, far more detailed and yet far shorter than EN15194-2017. And it’s free to download.

Not only that, if you don’t fancy using stock cars or bikes, there are any number of other options available.

In ebike racing we have the ‘Continuous 250W’ rule. It’s meaningless. I’m not even sure if manufacturers are required to truthfully report what their peak power and torque are.

And there are no limits on battery size which is going to be a massive differentiator.

So yes, there are some similarities but in reality it’s still not a proper set of rules for racing.

Surely the winners would be too embarrassed to actually wear the rainbow jersey anywhere else? Straight in the back of the wardrobe.

You can only wear them in the event you won them in.

Hence at the TDF one rider will have the rainbow stripes, and others will have their national championships jersey. But on TT day they swap so the TT WC winner wears the jersey.

So unless they head out for an eMTB ride they probably won’t wear them.

The fact that to even read the Technical Regulations of ebike racing is going to cost you close to £1,000 should tell you all you need to know.

Click Clicky

The problem, and it’s a problem with with EU ebike laws in general, is that 250 W continuous power is a minimum power measurement, not a maximum. What it means is that you can run the motor at 250 W forever and it’ll be fine until the bearings give out. In theory, it also means that if you run it at 251 W then eventually the motor will overheat.

I think you’re misinterpreting the rule quite significantly. The wording is:

4.2.14 Maximum power measurement — Measurement at the engine shaft
The maximum continuous rated power shall be measured according to EN 60034-1 when the motor
reaches its thermal equilibrium as specified by the manufacturer.
NOTE Thermal equilibrium: temperatures of motor parts do not vary more than 2K per hour.
In circumstance where the power is measured directly at the shaft of the electronic motor, the result of
the measurement shall be divided by 1,10 to consider the measurement uncertainty and then divided
by 1,05 to include for example the transmission losses, unless the real values of these losses are
determined.

That doesn’t mean you run the motor until the thermal cut-out activates, it means you run the motor on a dyno at its operating temperature because the temperature will affect the motors output. The motors average output at that point has to be 250W.

Torque =/= power, high torque systems will feel more powerful because they give you a kick up the arse from a standstill (or if you have a choppy pedaling style I presume they can assist that better rather a smoother pedaler that applies less torque but for a longer duration).

its kinda sweet that there is a category for people that arent able to compete on proper bikes. its kinda like if you cant win downhill races anymore you go ride EWS, but of you cant win anything at all give eMTB a go.