I’ve recently been involved in a disciplinary at work. The issues are quite involved and I don’t really want to go into them here. The “offence” was originally investigated in Dec 2016 and I was exonerated, but when my employer sent me a letter to say that there was no case to answer, HR failed to write the correct letter, which included some sanctions, so I objected to it. So I have a copy of this letter saying I had done nothing wrong.

Soon after that the company decided to have an independent investigation into what had happened, and for various reasons I have now been found guilty of not carrying out a reasonable management instruction.

Unfortunately for me I agreed to take part in this new investigation, and in doing so the company stated that I needed to agree that the previous findings were null and void.

I appreciate that I must look like a complete effing idiot to have done this, but there is lots of other stuff around this that I don’t want to talk about here, because it might help identify me to my employer.

So, my question is, in employment law, can they say that the original outcome can just be disregarded. It would be really helpful to me if the original findings letter had some legal weight.

thanks

So, my question is, in employment law, can they say that the original outcome can just be disregarded. It would be really helpful to me if the original findings letter had some legal weight.

Unfortunately for me I agreed to take part in this new investigation, and in doing so the company stated that I needed to agree that the previous findings were null and void.

Think you’ve answered your own question here.

IANAL but if you agreed that the previous investigation was null and void then I think you are screwed. I really hope I’m wrong for your sake.

FWIW I couldn’t do an investigation on an event that took place so far back as Dec 16 due to time passed.

Thanks to both of you for your comments, I just get the feeling from my persecutors, that they are behaving nervously around the original letter. They have said that it can’t be admitted as evidence because it wasn’t part of the new independent investigation. This seems a bit strange if they could just say I had agreed the outcome would be discarded.

I don’t think my lot have set in stone time limits, it is going on a bit now!

I’ll steal TJ’s usual advice Union or employment lawer

Union are involved, but I’ve peed them off by getting involved in the second investigation, possibly with some justification. They haven’t wanted to get too involved since then. Certainly considering a lawyer, its only a first written  and I’ve never been in trouble before, probably won’t be again, so probably don’t want to throw too much money at this. I would love to see them off over this if I could though, especially as the whole thing is a stitch up.

Ask for best of three? IANAL but if you have to go down a tribunal route you have a document from them which exonerates you which might create reasonable doubt. Are you able to say why the result is so different this time? I’d be considering DPa requests for all personal data held on you regarding both investigations. Is it classed as minor or major misconduct?
Cheeky edit in view of your last,a lot depends on how bothered you are. Much as I used to like sticking it to management. Sometimes it’s not worth the aggro if the sanction has no real impact, move on an be smarter next time they try it on

cheers Kilo, great advice, its been a long stressful haul and it will be great when its over. I did underestimate the amount of emotional investment that goes into this shite.

I would love to finish this on a high though. Hopefully there won’t be a next time!

I don’t think its gross misconduct, so I guess its minor.

Iaanal but I’m not convinced that courts really pay much attention to letters from each if you agreeing to disregard a previous investigation.

The company can’t just get you to agree that something that did happen didn’t happen.

I think.

Ha, thats more like it! @thegeneralist. Just tell me what I want to hear and I’ll go away happy,

But it does feel wrong that they can disregard the original finding.

At our place failing to carry out a reasonable manager request is, if it’s a one off with no great implications or negative outcome, a minor disciplinary matter getting you management words of advice which in reality have no real effect on your career, pay etc. I’d want to know what their planned sanction is before putting it all to bed.

You agreed to disregard the 1st investigation. Perhaps without legal advice? Also you have accepted that the letter was incorrect. Did you communicate that to them?

Speak to a lawyer, this is too convoluted for the armchair experts on here.

For me it’ll be a first written warning, no loss of pay etc, with maybe some training in conduct in the workplace, so not too bad really, just completely undeserved.

You are so right about it being complicated. I will get the outcome in a couple of days and then consider my options re legal advice.

I did complain about the first letter, hr not interested and not properly managed by their bosses. You are right, I should have got some advice at the time of the first letter.

I’ve got number of a good employment lawyer if you want it but he aint cheap

I can send you number if it’s helpful

Thanks Woody, perhaps you could pm me the number, not sure if I’ll use it yet though.

Have you signed anything ?  If not I think it’s out of order to do this after 12 months.

My missus has secured a good ‘payoff’ in the past even though she was with the company a year, they started a witch hunt after being off sick with mental health issues. She has done a law degree and spelled some employment law out to them and they folded – she didn’t want to work for them anyway, but she basically got equivalent of 6 months pay. She had a new job within 2 weeks !

Employers do some shitty stuff.  Unless there is new ‘evidence’ then they can’t investigate again !

I’m certain I haven’t signed anything. I did give verbal agreement to several people though. Unfortunately they have redone the investigation now.

Sorry for your wife’s experiences, yes they really can be *****. Glad she worked it to help her though

If you were exonerated from the original case, a line is drawn, they’d have to start a fresh.

Were you coerced into ‘reversing’ your original stance then it sounds a bit dubious.

No, unfortunately. Walked right into like a dick.  It seemed like a way of getting some of the other issues around this aired by an independent investigator. I now have strong suspicions that the investigator has been led by management, difficult to prove though. I think I was a bit too trusting, lesson learned though.

Seems like a lot of effort unless they’re going to seriously do your legs at some point.

That’s a warning rather than saying you’re paranoid:)

The whole thing sounds completely bizarre.

What outcome do you want from this?  Its rarely worth fighting too hard over a first warning unless you fear its a part of being managed out.  If the two things relate to the same incident then yes the first panels findings are relevant and yo have every right to have them incorporated into the evidence.

Did you do anything wrong in all this?  did you refuse a legitimate instruction?

Without knowing more I really cannot advise a great deal more.  don’t waste your money on lawyers for a first written warning, listen to your union.  PM me if you want and I’ll try to help

Thanks tj, will do, but probably tommorrow, spent 3 hours in the hearing today and I just want to veg out in front of the tv now.

It is totally bizare. I did refuse the instruction but argued it wasn’t reasonable. Management closed ranks around the manager concerned. I’ve yet to meet anyone in the real world that feels they or he have behaved reasonably. They want to send a message to others thinking of questioning stuff. Its all a bit old skool and not very modern in management style.

Admissable evidence?

where? I assume they mean at an employment tribunal?  Why are they expecting to be in a tribunal?  That would need you to quit and claim constructive dismissal or them to fire you.

For what it’s worth the decision on what is admissable is one for the tribunal not either of the parties.  The ultimate decision is made on the balance of probabilities (not reasonable doubt) and the rules of evidence are not as strict as criminal courts either.  So IF you ended up at a tribunal I could imagine them having to answer questions about why the initial investigation was invalid.

Just one word of warning, the people who you have shared the full details of this with (from your perspective) are probably not impartial and so may not be giving you helpful advice on what is/was reasonable for the manager to expect.

Thanks to everyone for your help and interest in this. I fear we have drifted away from the OP. I know the circumstances around the OP are fairly murky, as explained, this is deliberate on my part, as I don’t want to fall foul of another offence, bringing the organisation into disrepute. I’ve already got the written warning, today was the appeal hearing against this and as I said they appeared to be behaving a bit oddly, whenever the original finding letter was mentioned. I’m not thinking of using a lawyer against anyone, but someone, a senior manager, is going to have to put their name onto the letter saying my sanction is going to stand. I thought if it could be suggested that this may have ramifications if there is any external scrutiny, they might think twice, and clear me. There are options for external scrutiny as we are a public sector organisation.

Hopefully won’t be going anywhere near an employment tribunal. As you say, this is all done to their procedures and they really seem to hold all the cards. Will just have to suck it up.

That letter wasn’t part of the original investigation was it? So it’s still admissible. Bingo!

You don’t work in KFC’s supply team do you?

It seems to me like it’s been decided that, whatever the rights and wrongs, someone has to take a turn in the barrel (because that way they can tell a client that someone has been given a warning, which is a lot easier than actually solving the problem) and it’s your turn

I’m tempted to say that without having submitted a request for an appeal in writing (?) it might be worth fighting… but as a first warning, I think you might be better to let it slide And keep your nose clean