Evening all,

Quick question for the Singletrack collective. I had a sick line at work in June/July for 8 working days. I ended up working the first day of the sick line then took the rest of that week and the following week off.

I put my notice in today and after a chat with my boss to check holiday entitlement etc he gave me a list of the days off I have had this year. He has put through 2 days of my sick line as holidays. There was no discussion or mention about this. I had a proper doctors line saying I was unfit for work.

Our holidays run May – May so I have used more holidays than I have acrued and I’m due them back 4 days, but I’m wondering if these 2 days can be contested?

Im not bothered about rocking the boat as he didn’t take my resignation well and was a bit of an arse about the whole thing.

So can they just do this? What’s my argument if I have one?

Thanks.

You were sick and had a sick line, it’s not holiday. You owe them 2 days not 4.

Well there is one easy solution.

What’s your sick pay rate? Could be he’s done you a favour, financially speaking (or at least thinks he has).

What’s a sick line? Genuine question BTW

SSP, so yes he has technically done me a favour at the time but today he was like a petulant child during our chat so I thought I’d check out the legal side of it.

Thats true Drac, I could just not bother going back in.. but I will.

Oh on a serious note.

Were these holidays booked before your absence?

Yes they were booked at start of the year.

What’s a sick line?

I was going to ask that.

I don’t know if it’s law or just policy, but where I work if you book holiday and wind up being sick, your holiday gets cancelled and it’s counted as sick days instead. Assuming you tell them, anyway.

Yes they were booked at start of the year.

You’re not always entitled to your holidays back due to sickness.

I don’t know if it’s law or just policy, but where I work if you book holiday and wind up being sick, your holiday gets cancelled and it’s counted as sick days instead. Assuming you tell them, anyway.

I belive that’s law, or at least Acas guidelines or whatever.
That said of you are ill when on leave it’s sometimes to your benefit to not inform.

It might actually be to the ops benefit if he was on SSP rather than full pay when sick.

They can refuse to let you take holiday if you’re sick but they can’t force you to take pre-booked holidays if you were sick.

could just be a cockup, the HR system had those days booked as holiday and it was never changed to sick leave…

Let me get this right….

So I have booked a weeks holiday (Mon-Fri) starting next Monday.
I go into work this Thursday, and come down with something, and don’t come in on Friday as I am ill. This sickness continues for the whole of the following week that I originally had booked as holiday.
So are you saying that I am entitled to change the days off that I had booked as holiday , and that I could take them as sick days instead….. ?

Or have I read it all wrong ?

@revs1972 I believe that’s what my company does, no idea if it’s a legal/statutory thing or just that my company is nice.

Infact just checked and it seems a statutory thing https://www.gov.uk/taking-sick-leave

Just to clarify I was signed off work from the doctor not sick as in manflu or cat aids, and I wasn’t due to be off on holiday he has paid me holiday pay when I was off on the doctors line.

What is this HR department you speak of Footflaps? 😆. It’s a family run business with only the boss to answer to himself.

@revs1972 My understanding is you could get next week’s leave officially changed to sick absence and get those five days (if you work five day weeks) annual leave back to use another time.

However, that would increase the odds of getting a sickness stage warning (I would get a stage one warning for four absences and or 14+ days, including consecutive scheduled days off, in a 12 month period).

You would also likely require a doctor’s note, as I can only self certificate for six days.

OP’s situation sounds dodgy to me, unless you agreed to that arrangement.

Are you a member of a union?

A sick note from a doctor during a booked holiday should result in the those days being cancelled/returned, by law.

I think he’s kinda done you a favour. I’m not sure he would have to pay you those first few days and even if he did it would be at a reduced rate.
So you got full pay for those days by taking then as holiday.
Never heard of converting holiday into sick days so maybe it’s a discretionary thing.

I don’t think yo can be off sick and some of the days put thru as holiday. Certainly not without your consent. It can mean more money for you of course and may make their accounting easier but nope – thats two days sick not two days holiday

Let me get this right….

So I have booked a weeks holiday (Mon-Fri) starting next Monday.
I go into work this Thursday, and come down with something, and don’t come in on Friday as I am ill. This sickness continues for the whole of the following week that I originally had booked as holiday.
So are you saying that I am entitled to change the days off that I had booked as holiday , and that I could take them as sick days instead….. ?

Or have I read it all wrong ?

Yup, thats my understanding. Although Ive never had the balls to try it.

What’s a sick line?

A place in the shift pattern. E.g. a factory, hospital, fire station etc will have a number of lines. Some might be nights, some days, some a mix 2 on 2 off etc, or earlies, lates etc. But your ‘line’ will probably be planned out many months in advance and you’ll always be working with people on the same line.

A bit like saying you work night shifts, except the shifts vary.

So if you’re ill its often easier to kick you off the line for a full rotation of days/nights and bring someone in rather than try and find cover that doesn’t mean the coverer has to do a double shift or something daft. Then when you come back its desk duty/solo/covering other shifts till the pattern changes.

E.g. Drac is a paramedic (i think), so his EMT will be on the same line as him (as will a load of others). So if he doesnt like then he would have to wait for a vacancy to come up on a different line.

A place in the shift pattern.

Yet another new factoid from STW!

I don’t think yo can be off sick and some of the days put thru as holiday.

Actually, that’s a point. I’ve half a memory that I once tried to put sick leave through as holiday in order to dodge the ‘three strikes’ clause and was declined.

I’d had flu or something, came back into work as I was feeling better and then relapsed so took another day off, that’s counted as two separate absences. One more absence in 12 months either side of that and you’re talking to HR, I’d have been better off not coming back in.

Although, as stated above.
If your place of work is not unionised and as a result you only get SSP for time off due to ill health instead of a ‘proper sick pay’ safety net,
then take the hols.

Yeah I think it’s a bit dodgy aswell tj but didn’t want to go in and get it wrong.

I wasn’t due to be on holiday when I was on the doctors note. I went to the doctors on Tuesday 25th June and got an unfit for work note from Wednesday 26th June until Monday July 8th.

I went into work on the Wednesday to see how I felt, I felt crap so I finished the days work and said I was taking the doctors advice and going off on the sick note. He has put through Thursday 27th, Friday 28th June, Monday 1st, Tuesday 2nd and Wednesday 3rd July as sick days and the Thursday 4th and Friday 5th July as holiday. But I wasn’t informed he had done this at the time and wasn’t due to be off on holiday.

I only noticed today when he gave me a list of the days off I have had this year.

Not in a union either..

He should have told you what he did – you’ve effectively had full pay for 2 day’s SSP, but it’s come back to bite now you are leaving having had more pro-rata days on hols. It’s a bit of a muddle, and not quite right, but you’ve had the pay previously (without knowing/checking).

Ideally, you’d not be logged as sick for the day you went in, so should have at least one day back that you don’t need to re-pay. The boss messed it up.

So are you saying that I am entitled to change the days off that I had booked as holiday , and that I could take them as sick days instead….. ?

Yes, though I’m pretty sure it’s at the employers discretion. I spent what would have been a 2 week honeymoon in hospital (admitted the day before we were due to leave) took it as sick leave instead. Tbh I did use up some of the holidays taking 1/2 days for follow up appointments etc though so give and take.
Might be up to your employer if you were self certifying though (ie, no docs note)

I reckon you’d have to have a very understanding employer to give you sick days if you were actually on holiday when taken ill though.

Cheers Fossy, that’s what I’ll put to them tomorrow.

This is why you all need to be in a union!

OP – you need proper advice. In my workplace you cannot be off sick when on holiday. My sick line ran out halfway thru a fortnights holiday, I got the one week back but I am not sure of the legal position. Mrs TJ is almost sure those days should be sick days

work out the money tho – it might make little or no difference.

I am not sure they can claw back holidays taken i advance of accrual either.

Check the sums, see if its worth fighting, get proper advice

I have been saying for years that we need to be in a union but none of the other drivers would go for it. We have a drivers committee to deal with pay increases etc.. but it’s just a bunch of yes men who get bribed with new vehicles and good jobs all year round to keep them sweet and stop them rocking the boat.

Example: We are well overdue a pay rise, so when this was put to the bosses by the committee the response was “if the drivers want more money they can work weekends”, even though we are getting hammered all week every week!

Perhaps a phone call to citizens advice tomorrow. I was dreading putting my notice in aswell and felt guilty, it was a very hard decision to make last night but I know I did the right thing now. Just need to hold out a couple of days longer then I’m well rid.

Thanks for the advice folks.

@1981miked I’m a chartered accoutant, and know what’s supposed to be done – I work for companies/employed by them and he did funny deal – in good intentions.

He was sort of doing you a favour, but didn’t do day 1 right, as that’s counted as in work if you go home sick, so full pay (unless they are an ass).

I’d go in with the middle stance – it’s upto them what they do as that won’t affect SSP now, or payroll returns to HMRC – but being fair, go for the one day back as a minimum – you were in but then went home sick.

All else fails, accept it – you got paid 2 full days, no SSP, but have to pay back 2 full days – lost the the SSP (£150 ish….)

Depends if you want a good reference/future relationship or they are ar$es……

I was dreading putting my notice in aswell and felt guilty

Don’t. Most employers would dump staff in a heartbeat if it made financial sense to do so.

PS Union’s are sh1te…. never stopped me getting redundant twice, and are a right royal pain in my current role (finance – but ensuring people have jobs is my remit – i.e.managing finance).

Taken straight from citizens advice website. I have never signed a contract in the 10+ years I have been with them.. so the way I understand it, they can’t take the money off me?

<h2 dir=”ltr”>If your employer says you’ve taken too much holiday</h2>
<p dir=”ltr”>The first thing you should do is check your holiday record to see if it reflects the holidays you’ve taken.</p>
<p dir=”ltr”>Check your contract or if there’s a written agreement that says what you have to do if you’ve taken too much holiday when you leave a job. It might say you have to pay your employer back or work extra days without pay. Your employer can only make you pay them back or work extra days if there’s a written agreement.</p>
<p dir=”ltr”>If it is in writing – for example in your contract or a written agreement – check if it also says your employer can take the money you owe them from your final wages.</p>
<p dir=”ltr”>If it doesn’t, then your employer doesn’t have a legal right to deduct money from your final pay, even if you’re required to repay the holiday or work extra hours. If they do deduct it, it’s an unauthorised deduction even if you owe them money.</p>
<p dir=”ltr”>If the employer doesn’t deduct it from your final pay and you don’t pay it back, your employer is entitled to take you to court to get it. You should get help from your nearest Citizens Advice.</p>

A place in the shift pattern. E.g. a factory, hospital, fire station etc will have a number of lines. Some might be nights, some days, some a mix 2 on 2 off etc, or earlies, lates etc. But your ‘line’ will probably be planned out many months in advance and you’ll always be working with people on the same line.

A bit like saying you work night shifts, except the shifts vary.

So if you’re ill its often easier to kick you off the line for a full rotation of days/nights and bring someone in rather than try and find cover that doesn’t mean the coverer has to do a double shift or something daft. Then when you come back its desk duty/solo/covering other shifts till the pattern changes.

🤷‍♂️ 29yrs in fire service never heard of this tosh.

Thanks again Fossy, that all makes sense. Can we do a conference call tomorrow with them so I can have you on my side? 👍🏻

I don’t need to worry about a reference and they are being arses. I could throw the book at them for many things and the things they have done to me in the past but I just got on with it as I couldn’t be bothered with the aggro.

I could write a book on the shortcomings and improvements needed to be made, plus the numerous unsafe working practices and failure to provide adequate PPE.

What happened to the line? Is it still sick?

I’ve known folk to get additional annual leave days as they were signed off over a Bank Holiday/Xmas.

A place in the shift pattern. E.g. a factory, hospital, fire station etc will have a number of lines. Some might be nights, some days, some a mix 2 on 2 off etc, or earlies, lates etc. But your ‘line’ will probably be planned out many months in advance and you’ll always be working with people on the same line.

And here was me thinking sick line was just slang for a doctor’s note.

And here was me thinking sick line was just slang for a doctor’s note.

I assumed the same and thought it was a Scottish thing, I’d never heard it before I moved north.