For a bit of perspective, I think cyclists focus on the negative encounters with motorists. It clouds our view the same as it does for motorists.

This is true. I think the majority of people are great. They really understand that you need space, and go out of their way to give you it (even if it means driving round a blind bend on the wrong side of the road!) The amount of pensioners that give you no space or consideration whatsoever probably backs up the fact that attitudes have mostly improved on the roads with newer generations.

Trouble is, there’s a massive difference between motor vehicles and cycles, in that one poses a very serious danger when driven in anger, and the other one is generally a very minor inconvenience at worst.

Had a funny one today myself. Approaching a T-junction. Big pick-up comes past, there was just enough room before the junction, and I was happy to let him past rather than hold anyone up, so stayed in secondary. Once he was past I moved out into the middle of the road behind him, ready to turn right (the same way he was going). Reached the junction, so he stops to give way. No traffic. I’m sat behind waiting patiently. And he waits there for about 20 seconds, until a whole bunch of traffic comes trundling along, choosing to jump out at the last possible moment, leaving me to wait for the traffic to pass. Now maybe I have a teensy weensy bit of paranoia here, but I seen his smug face peering back at me in the wing mirror as he pulled away, and I swear he did it on purpose. Trivial stuff. And I couldn’t care less really. As long as people aren’t trying to kill me, they can **** with me all they want. I’m cool with that. But I was a bit taken back by it!

I’m struggling to see how you feel that drivers on autopilot because they feel they don’t need to concentrate are not actively dangerous?

I meant that they don’t go out in their car deliberately thinking “I will be dangerous”.
The point is that they are still dangerous because they are driving on autopilot but they don’t mean to be. It’s passively dangerous and that’s almost worse – they simply don’t realise their actions are a problem. That’s why there’s still so much misunderstanding, so much anger on the roads, it’s almost all based on ignorance.

Although that said, I personally see a fair bit of really considerate behaviour on my commutes. Maybe it’s cos I expect all drivers to do idiotic things, I’m pleasantly surprised when they don’t!

(even if it means driving round a blind bend on the wrong side of the road!)

Then they shouldn’t be overtaking you. Overtaking on a blind bend? They wouldn’t overtake another car on a blind bend, so why is it somehow ‘honourable’ when they do it to a cyclist, but don’t squeeze the cyclist. They could still kill someone coming the other way!

I think you are too forgiving!

If I come off my bike riding it off-road and hurt myself I will take responsibility. I won’t sue the trail builder or county council or whoever. It would be my fault and my fault alone. But I will not stand for being potentially seriously injured or killed by someone in car who cannot wait ten seconds, it really is as simple as that.

Then they shouldn’t be overtaking you. Overtaking on a blind bend? They wouldn’t overtake another car on a blind bend, so why is it somehow ‘honourable’ when they do it to a cyclist, but don’t squeeze the cyclist. They could still kill someone coming the other way!

I think you are too forgiving!

That comment was meant to be a bit tongue in cheek.

I meant that they don’t go out in their car deliberately thinking “I will be dangerous”.

I fully agree that most drivers don’t set out to be dangerous but there are definitely a few who really, really *want* to hurt you. When I’ve been deliberately rammed or dangerously overtaken, it’s almost always by blokes with their mate(s), leering and sneering. Which kind of bucks the trend of young girls being the main protaginists.

That said, I’ve had a fair few deliberate cut-ups then middle fingers by that demographic too.

Exactly – making assumptions about why cyclists might be riding 2 abreast or primary and instantly judging them as nobs is YOUR problem – YOUR ignorance – there may well be very good reasons for it and often are.

“Having a chat” is not a good reason, it’s selfish and leads to the sort of negative attitudes from other road users that we bemoan on here on a regular basis.

Really, do you actually ride like that? I’m alright jack, bollocks to the rest of you? Take point when you need to to stop reckless overtakes, let the rest of the world get on with its business when you’re blowing it out of your arse in the granny ring on a gentle incline and it’s safe to allow them to pass.

Jesus, no wonder cyclists are hated.

But then again Cougar, I regularly see horseriders riding two abreast, chatting away loudly, with no observation, but drivers obediently slow to a crawl and wait for several minutes before overtaking reverentially.

Same road, but this time with cyclists, same drivers are behaving in a completely different manner.

Why is that?

Why is that?

Because your average cyclist can’t kick your windscreen in like a horse can?

Why is that?
Because your average cyclist can’t kick your windscreen in like a horse can?

Tempted to start doing just that.

they simply don’t realise their actions are a problem.

This is very common, and I think is a major part of why the roads don’t feel safe a lot of the time. Just last week I yelled at a young woman who buzzed me, less than a foot off my bars when I was doing close on 30 down a hill. I caught up with her at the lights (so no need for the overtake at all) and fully expected defensive ranty road-tax bullshit, but she was very apologetic and clearly hadn’t a clue that she’d done anything stupid. Many people simply have no idea what it’s like having several tons of metal whizz past inches away from you at speed.

Really, do you actually ride like that? I’m alright jack, bollocks to the rest of you?

No absolutely not – that’s the point I’m making – people are judging cyclists and putting them in danger because they ASSUME, just as you’ve done, that there’s some kind of deliberate ‘sod you’ attitude.

This is how club riding works:
You ride together for social reasons
You ride two up for increased visibility for vehicles (safer for the driver and for the cyclists) and because it’s most efficient in the wind.
(Dulwich Paragon, one of my clubs, was formed in 1935 – before cars were in mass usage and before most of today’s drivers were born… so 2-abreast certainly was not invented as some kind of ‘sod you’ to drivers!
So we ride along quite happily down quiet country lanes with no traffic in either direction – legal, safe and social…
A car comes up behind. People at the back shout ‘single out’ if they think the road’s wide enough for the car to overtake. No point singling out if it’s not (that’s a safety issue, not a ‘sod you’)
For a group of any size 8/12+ this process will take a few minutes whilst we all change pace so we can slot in behind one another without taking anyone out (which would be a danger for the riders and the driver)…

In the meantime the driver will have had to slow down.

Most drivers in my experience are ok with this. Some aren’t. Some, like you, make assumptions that we’re playing childish games, when in fact most of the time we’re mature adults, trying to show some consideration, whilst keeping safe.

But it’s bloody hard sometimes to keep calm when people start judging us when they themselves are utterly ignorant about cycling, safety and best practice.

So please try and think before you start judging…

Apples and oranges.

So we ride along quite happily down quiet country lanes with no traffic in either direction – legal, safe and social…
A car comes up behind. People at the back shout ‘single out’

There’s a world of difference between this and two people riding two-abreast holding up traffic for miles for no good reason. You are moving to let people past when required, some don’t.

(You know I ride a bike occasionally, yes?)

Moreover,

Over the years I’ve used the roads as a cyclist, a motorist, a motorcycle rider, and a pedestrian. Whichever my chosen mode of transport that day, I try not to be an arseache to everyone else. I fail to see why this is such a difficult concept for so many people. (And I don’t mean people here, I mean generally.)

(You know I ride a bike occasionally, yes?)

This is the lame excuse a lot of poor car drivers use when they have done something wrong or don’t understand how traffic law has changed since they passed their test. It does them no favours.

For a group of any size 8/12+ this process will take a few minutes whilst we all change pace so we can slot in behind one another without taking anyone out (which would be a danger for the riders and the driver)…

Really ?… I mean a few minutes.. a few seconds for a group riding to BC recomendations with a tail gunner calling ‘ car back ‘ and the pack sorting itself out . I reckon 30 secs maximum.

I dont know what you guys do but i have only encountered rude/bad drivers twice. maybe i dont ride enough 20 mile commute 3 times a week and genraly another big road ride at least once a week.

Last week however my gear box failed on my car, it stuck in first gear and wouldnt move, Unfortunatly i was setting of from a trafficlight and was stuck In an ASL not one or two but 3 cyclists shouted abuse at meand not a single one stopped to see if i needed help, every car that passed gave me plenty of room and some even offered help.

I genraly have a good opinion of cyclists and not fused by motorists but thisday really made me question whether people do dislike cyclists or whether we make a bigger deal out of small incidents.

Really ?… I mean a few minutes.. a few seconds for a group riding to BC recomendations with a tail gunner calling ‘ car back ‘ and the pack sorting itself out . I reckon 30 secs maximum.

Ideally, yes. We have a lot of new riders in the clubs I ride in and not all are listening out for the shouts or confident enough to move quickly which can make things slower. Plus the groups are getting larger – we’re starting to split them now to make them easier to manage…

as a cyclist I hate drivers and as a driver I hate cyclists. however no matter whether riding a bike or driving a car I always make room for the other, even in the case of overtaking cyclists if it means slowing right down because of blind bend or hidden dip coming up. I normally hug the gutter as a cyclist but know fellow riders who take the view that sticking the bike halfway between gutter and white lines means cars are less likely to take risks overtaking which actually make sense. it’s all about balance, but there will always be a minority on both sides that will drive and cycle like idiots. with cycling becoming more and more popular like running is I think a govt tv campaign like they did in the 80’s reminding road users about road etiquette would be a good as people do over time forget their Highway Code etc

There’s a world of difference between this and two people riding two-abreast holding up traffic for miles for no good reason. You are moving to let people past when required, some don’t.

In over 15 years of daily driving, I’m yet to see this. I’m sure it does happen, occasionally. But is it really the problem it’s made out to be? Or is it just exaggerated by those who, as brooess points out, always assume that a cyclist is being discourteous by riding two-abreast (even in those cases when traffic can easily pass)?

This is the lame excuse a lot of poor car drivers use

“Occasionally” was tongue in cheek, given where I’m posting this I thought that might be obvious.

In over 15 years of daily driving, I’m yet to see this. I’m sure it does happen, occasionally. But is it really the problem it’s made out to be?

It’s much more common out in the sticks than in urban areas, but then, I rarely see cyclists round town in packs greater than “one” so it’s unlikely to occur. It’s not a huge problem generally for exactly that reason, it just happens to be what we’re discussing at the moment.

(And, if we’re playing “how long we’ve been driving daily” Top Trumps, I win.)

You know, I’m half tempted to move this discussion to the Chat forum, it’s far better suited over there…

It’s much more common out in the sticks than in urban areas…

I live out in the sticks.

“Having a chat” is not a good reason,

Mmmm..yes it is, and you may be the self appointed queen around here but that means nothing in the real world. If a couple of cyclist feel they have good reason to ride side by side then they have the right.

Bell ends like you may not like it, tough what are you going to do, run into them?

Good point.

I’ll go and have a picnic in the middle lane of the M6 tomorrow.

(also, with my Moderator hat on, please don’t sling personal insults around.)