I have a bee in my bonnet…

For no other reason other than “because I want to” I’m looking at new hard tail frames

Enter the idiot stage left…

I’m don’t really know much about geometry or what it does and how it affects my riding so am feeling pretty lost in a which way to turn kind of way

I currently have a 2018 Dartmoor Hornet frame and if I’m honest, I bought it because a)I liked the look of it b)it was a cheap way of getting back into MTB’ing

Now that I know I’m back and loving off road life on two wheels, I fancy something maybe a bit different (plus a bit of an issue with my current frame that isn’t much of an issue but is a constant niggle)

Anyway, now that you stopped laughing, what’s worth a look?!

Loving the look of identiti AKA frames but, due to my lack of frame knowledge, not sure if it’s right for me

Riding wise, I tend to follow my nose and see where I end up and have found that the more I ride the more challenging spots I find / enjoy and look for

I go through woods, I go through dirt tracks, I go uphill, I go downhill, I go along sea walls (muddy and concrete) and canal paths, there’s not really many places that I don’t go on a regular basis

What I would like…
As much internal routing as possible (purely aesthetic)
27.5” wheels (plan to move parts over from my current frame)
Small frame size (5’6” rider)

Currently I could stretch to about £500 tops but I’m in no immediate rush so could save up a bit more

Not sure if I’m ready for full sus bikes yet hence me discounting those (if only for now)

What’s about? what’s recommended?

Please, help educate an idiot…

Currently I could stretch to about £500 tops but I’m in no immediate rush so could save up a bit more

The problem is supply, cheap frames are in short supply as all those people on furlough and bored bought them to use up what was in their spares bin.

Nothing in stock from ragley or nukeproof at CRC, bird are out of stock, On-One I presume are close to out of stock having bumped the price of a scandal from ~£250 to £800*

Remember when comparing hardtails to your current bike, that hardtails feel like longer reach than FS bikes, the head angle also feels steeper, and the seat angle feels steeper. Mostly down to the fork sagging without a corresponding effect from the rear suspension.

*Although their recent advertising push focusing on cycle to work might just mean they’re trying to reposition themselves a bit in order to build in a profit margin when C2W/cyclescheme/whoever takes their big cut. Although having said that, there’s nothing about it that makes it “cheap”, it was just very good value.

For an all rounder that identiti doesn’t actually have bad geometry. If sticking in 27.5 wheels it’s got nice short snappy chainstays, the reach is sensibly modern without going bonkers long and the headangle is alright once it’s sagged. The only thing I’d prefer is a shorter seat tube size for size to fit in longer dropper posts.

For your money you’re going to be getting alloy pretty much – maybe it’s marginally less comfortable than steel on a like for like basis but there’s not much in it. For me I built a steel hardtail recently and the 2.6” tyre on the back of it has made it way more comfy than my last alloy hardtail with a 2.25/2.3” tyre on the back of it.

In budget and another allrounder to consider is the Sonder Transmitter (if in stock) – possibly a bit longer reach but nothing bonkers. All internal routing I believe.

When I was looking I also considered the Ribble HT725 / Bird Zero AM / Orange Clockwork Evo / Stanton Slackline and Switchback.

In the end I bought a custom Marino hardtail frame as I could customise everything on it – angles / lengths / routing – the lot. Actually works out pretty cheap for a steel frame – let alone a custom one.

(plus a bit of an issue with my current frame that isn’t much of an issue but is a constant niggle)

What’s the niggle? Might help inform a more suitable frame.

Available now and £320 (+£6 p&p I think)

The DMR Trailstar hardtail MTB frame is built for the mountain bike trail riding which got you hooked in the first place.

DISCOUNT OFFER 36%
PROMOTIONAL PRICE £320

My take … Also owning 2x FS Enduro’s, a 4x (ish) 26er, a 27.5 XC HT…

Its the bike I use the most from local bimbles to bike parks …. you can also at a pinch get narrow 29″ wheels on… Steel Frame is wonderfully springy… playfull all round

If I hadn’t got it and had a bit of extra cash I’d be looking at the new Bird (or a Ragley or P7)

What I would like…
As much internal routing as possible (purely aesthetic)
27.5” wheels (plan to move parts over from my current frame)
Small frame size (5’6” rider)

So no internal routing except dropper (but I hate internal routing)
You need the same axle standard is it boost or not?
I ride the same bike as the 11yr old… its a bit short for me in S TBH but also the only bike I can get a 200mm dropper on…

Anyway… discount link here if that suits you

https://www.dmrbikes.com/Catalogue/Frames/Hard-Tail/Trailstar

Bird Zero AM would be perfect.

Riding wise, I tend to follow my nose and see where I end up and have found that the more I ride the more challenging spots I find / enjoy and look for

I go through woods, I go through dirt tracks, I go uphill, I go downhill, I go along sea walls (muddy and concrete) and canal paths, there’s not really many places that I don’t go on a regular basis

Tell us more about where you ride. Your description could be my house<span style=”font-size: 0.8rem;”> – edge of the Highlands, big climbs, big rocks and roots and a 300m climb.  It could also be my brother in law’s house in Suffolk, who enjoys a totter down to the beach on his hybrid via some forests, where the local hill is 26m and has some pebbles on the descent.</span>

I bought on geometry. I think you need to get yourself acquainted with the main points on geometry and go from there. FWIW I bought a Pipedream Moxie in the smallest size (“longish”) which I love. I’m also 5’6″. But I restricted my options to those with certain types of dropout, for singlespeed. And I wanted a bike that was good on fairly steep/tech stuff, caring less about cross country miles. From your description I’m not sure whether you want similar.

I remember thinking I quite liked the geo of the Sonder and Identiti options mentioned above. Moxie is “long, low, slack” but probably too low BB for conventional 27.5 setup and average length cranks, and I went for the smaller size option. I run a big back tyre, a 29″ front and shorter cranks. Reach up to about 450mm max is OK for me but my bikes are more like 435 I think.

if you want to learn more about Hardtails check out “Hardtail Party” on youtube. Steve, the chap running the channel is about your size as well.

Wow! So much information that I don’t understand ha ha still trying to actually know what it all means rather than a “have bike, will ride” kind of guy

Thankyou all so far, I’ll try and digest all the info given so far and raise any questions when I know what to ask ha ha

@rickos the niggle, to cut a long story short, there was a fault with the frames that were sent out, the bottom bracket shell SHOULD have been threaded but wasn’t, at the time of having the bike built up for me the mechanic installed a bb that “screws onto itself inside the shell” have since had it looked at with a view to having it threaded but very little luck (another long story) I guess it would be nice to have a proper bottom bracket on it is my niggle

Regarding my riding, as I say, I tend to follow my nose and see where I end up, I guess if I were to summarise, I’m after something strong, goes uphill, and then goes downhill, and takes me everywhere in between

Oh, another small niggle, my current frame doesn’t have bottle cage bosses

OK, I thought the niggle might be that the seat tube was a bit too long or something.

What travel forks do you currently have to move across? That will likely hone the choices down. Plus whether your wheels are boost hub spacing or not.

Ive got a trailstar frame i really liked, recently swapped on to a transmitter which is so so good
the trailstar is really good, but the trasnmitter semd to work more for me, although its pretty firm up back

@rickos currently have 150mm rockshox revelations with stans arch rims on hope pro 4 hubs so can buy the adaptors to make it a boost sized wheel if need be

@alan1977 when you say better, how so?

Seeing lots of helpful comments riddled with terms I still don’t fully understand or what they would mean for me, my bike or my riding (really need to learn this stuff quicker) examples…

-When theres talk of “long low and slack” I’ve no idea what that means or how it affects the bike or riding, how do I know what’s right for me?
-talk about low bb, how does that affect anything, how does it work and what do I look for?
-short, snappy chainstays, along with being “pretty firm up back” how can I tell what’s what?

Apologies for all the stupid questions, trying to learn how one thing affects another on a mtb rather than just riding what I have without understanding, in hindsight I think I got lucky(?!) with my current frame as it just seems to work but then I have nothing to compare it to so am unsure how (if) it could better in some ways

I do like the look of the sonder transmitter but due to my lack of knowledge (at the minute) am wondering if it’s right for me in regards, will it help my riding skills/technique any?! And is it really an upgrade from my current frame?! Or am I looking at this all wrong?

I find I’m looking at what I would call the big name brands more and more (nukeproof, Santa Cruz as a couple of examples) but wondering if I’m looking at the wrong thing because they are the big brands

Apologies again for the stupid comments/questions

Low bb is nice for carving turns and stability, but you can go too low. A higher BB is easier to initially tip into a turn and usually easier to pop the front wheel, but there are extremes at either end that just go too far and push the bike into too niche an area. Same for long, low, slack (I don’t want my hard tail to have similar angles to my enduro bike – just becomes really hard work and destroys rims). I prefer a hard tail that is a bit more general and it sounds as though you want that too.

As mentioned above, check out Hardtail Party on YouTube. Some excellent videos on there to compare bikes and brands and by watching those you’ll start to pick up the lingo so you can answer your own questions on what you think you might want.

For me, something like a Ragley Marley would be good, but you’ll have to be looking at a recent year second hand model at the moment unless you put down a deposit with a local Ragley dealer and wait until they can get you a frame. Hardtail Party man loved his!

Good luck!

Just buy a Marin San Quentin 3?

https://www.marinbikes.com/gb/bikes/2021-san-quentin-3-frame-kit

Then build, ride and stop worrying.

Why? Because this answer is as good as any 😉

I built up a Sonder Transmitter a few months ago and am really enjoying it. Internal routing, boost, long enough and slack enough but not crazy. Mine came out at 12Kg with pedals so pretty light too for what it’s intentions are. The clincher for me was availability and price. Couldn’t find anything comparable for £300.

Sooooo, starting to read up and get my head around mtb geometry etc

In the meantime, I’m really liking the look of the transmitter

I found a geometry comparison thing online

And got this

https://www.dropbox.com/s/89m4agcq40vlfa2/82D217CE-058B-45D4-95FA-49BC74D17691.jpeg?dl=0

Trying to decipher the numbers and differences between my existing frame and the sonder

Can anyone enlighten me

Given the different numbers, what can I expect out of my potential new frame?

Climbs better? Goes down better? Good for short 20-30 mile (or longer) bursts

The frame is made for 650b+ wheels/tyres, would anything drastically change (better or worse) if I put my regular 27.5 wheels with 2.35 schwalbes on it?

Thanks in advance all

I do like the look of the sonder transmitter but due to my lack of knowledge (at the minute) am wondering if it’s right for me in regards, will it help my riding skills/technique any?! And is it really an upgrade from my current frame?! Or am I looking at this all wrong?

Just go and ride some bikes …. demo’s are opening up… borrow one etc.

will it help my riding skills/technique any

Nope but riding will ***…

the bottom bracket shell SHOULD have been threaded but wasn’t, at the time of having the bike built up for me the mechanic installed a bb that “screws onto itself inside the shell” have since had it looked at with a view to having it threaded but very little luck (another long story) I guess it would be nice to have a proper bottom bracket on it is my niggle

bottle bosses

For no other reason other than “because I want to” I’m looking at new hard tail frames

*** Not trying to be rude but you have a perfectly good bike and not much experience.
You’ve been bitten by the bug (yay) but what you buy now might not be the most appropriate in 6mo or a year. You might change what you ride most… or just get more experience.

@stevextc appreciate your points and am glad to see someone tell me to slow down a bit ha ha

Deffo get it checked out, OP. Could be early symptoms of neubikitis grasgreina (Totherside variant) 😉

appreciate your points and am glad to see someone tell me to slow down a bit ha ha

Well, its easy to spend other peoples money 😉
In 6mo time you might decide you should have gotten a full suss or something more XC or more DH…
The skills learning curve is very curved … (well my experience is its curved then flat for ages then curves up again). At your presumed level (assumptions sorry) you’ll likely see loads of gains and change what you like riding or meet some riding buddies who get you into different ends of MTB.

My personal experience is I ended up with 2 sets of riding buddies… one set into full on DH and another into endurance and XC. I’ve also got some “more beginner” mates I tend to ride the HT with… and for example one has gone from XC HT to short travel FS to full-on enduro in the last year.

If I go back 4-5 years I can say I had no idea what I’d be riding today… (and I suspect I’m a lot older than you).

My honest opinion … ride what you have and take as many opportunities to ride different bikes (hire/demo etc.) and try as much as you can. Try a few bike parks, try some long rides etc. etc. meet some people and ride with them. See what you like and what the current bike is lacking… take a skills course etc.

+1 for beg borrow and steal for a while. Looks like there’s should be demos available this year so have a bit of fun before getting the credit card out.

It’s been mentioned before, but the Sonder Transmitter is an absolutely cracking 27.5 frame.

I built one up during lockdown while my FS bike was waiting on fox to fix the shock. It’s an absolute hoot to ride and so light. Internal routing, 2.6 tyres and it has bottle bosses.

What I will say don’t be tempted to downsize on the tyres unless you are running short cranks. I put 2.35 on it to reduce weight for some more XC type riding and while it is super fast (it really is, rolls so well) with 175mm cranks I have hit pedals in loads of places. Didn’t have that issue when I was running 2.6

The only drawback for me was wheel size – I prefer 29 – so I’ve picked up a Sonder Signal frame which is very similar in numbers to the transmitter.

The Transmitter *is* rad.

But look at the geo comparison the OP posted: it’s really quite close to the Hornet he already has. Transmitter is a bit reachier, and has a steeper seat angle: both probably good things, but it’s not going to be eye-openingly different to the Hornet IMO.

I’m another vote for the “just ride your bike” camp 🙂

+1 for beg borrow and steal for a while. Looks like there’s should be demos available this year so have a bit of fun before getting the credit card out.

Try as many as possible and you’ll start to get an idea what it is you want…

Not sure where OP is
Bird are reopening demo’s from Eversley… and if you’re in the SE you can borrow a bike or two off me.
Propain have just announced a demo day at 417 .. (Cheltenham)

@seriousrikk so if I have this right, regular tyres – short crank arms
+ tyres – longer crank arms

Will either/or affect the ride if the frame

@tomparkin “both probably good things” how so? Good in what way?

@stevextc Thankyou for the offer bud, will certainly bear it in mind, in SE in Essex

Thankyou for the offer bud, will certainly bear it in mind, in SE in Essex

Likely to go to Twisted Oaks one weekend soon … or meet a mate in Epping forest

@donslow

@tomparkin “both probably good things” how so? Good in what way?

With caveat on the “probably” (since at the end of the day it all comes down to what you like/want)…

Looking again at the geo, the Transmitter is perhaps a bit further down the “long, low, slack” path* than the Hornet.

The extra reach stretches you out more on the bike, making your CoG lower and hence making things more stable. The seat tube angle is higher, which will help keep your weight central when climbing.

Just worth a mention: Sonder do demo/hire sessions on their bikes so you could take a Transmitter out for a whirl that way. I think their shops are all a bit further North than you, although they may do “mail order” demos perhaps.

* the whole LLS thing is an ongoing progression from the MTBs of yore, which looked like a road bike with knobbly tires, to what we have now, which seems to have more in common with motocross bike geometry. As a probably hideously naive oversimplification, the longer wheelbase makes the bike more stable at speed; the low slung frame helps keep rider CoG low (again more stable) and gives more room to move your weight around; the slack front end puts the front pivot point further away such that OTB is much less likely. All good in general for an off road bicycle.

However, see also gravel bikes, with their notably more roadish geometry and drop handle bars. Proving that maybe: (a) the original MTBs had something going for them, (b) marketing is a thing, (c) there is such a thing as “too capable” if your local trails are rolling farmland double track with the odd rooty woodland excursion, and maybe even (d) it’s horses for courses, lad.

Reading about stuff won’t really tell you how it feels to you.

The more you ride your bike and some others the more you will get an idea of what your next ride should be.

I.e before you want more stability at high speed etc you need to work out is that important to you for the trade off with agility.

Try a longer/shorter stem and narrower/wider bars etc. (Relativity cheap used and sell if you don’t like it)

Move your seat forwards and backwards

A bit harder is crank length .. except I doubt you’d go too short with anything off the shelf.

Personally I feel material is a major factor on HT’s. (But I’m old and not in a big rush so long as I keep up with younger and fitter mates) …
I’m very happy with a well designed steel frame with some spring in it.

I’d say overall on a longer ride it’s faster uphill than my much lighter hardtail because being old and unfit by the end of the day I feel less beat up from the steel frame. If I was to an hours climb to test im sure the carbon XC would be faster … on a days riding through less so by the end and less enjoyable.

I guess my point is give everything a decent test not just playing to a specific strength of a frame (which can be seductive) but what works best for you overall.

Get the current frame BB tapped for a BB then you can fit any threaded BB. Given the BB width of the hornet is 73mm the BB you currently have is meant for a 68mm width. You don’t get those types of BB in 73mm. Cost about £25 to get it tapped.

I currently ride a 2015 hornet and its ace. You ain’t going to find an AKA in stock anywhere and be lucky to find anything worth while.

@poah

Get the current frame BB tapped…

that was the plan but have since had two different places look at it and both have said “yeah we can tap a frame but we ain’t touching yours, doesn’t look enough meat on the shell for us to guarantee it”

It would seem that the current bb is fitted in there well enough to warrant comments of “we’ve loosened it but it won’t come out without damaging it”

Having done near 1500 miles on it trouble free does certainly make a statement for its durability but then I’m starting to wonder how much longer is it going to last

Partially why I’m looking at new frames, fresh start with a fault free frame and all that…

@tomparkin Thankyou for that, has cleared some bits up certainly, appreciate the time

@stevextc completely agree, nothing quite beats actually trying what your looking to get, I figure having a little knowledge to back it up helps, and beats me standing there after being asked “how was that?” With a dumbstruck look on the face (and probably a bit of dribble)

Idiot bike shops – The threadless BB sits in and screws into itself. Shouldn’t be an issue to take it out. As for meat on the shell, it hasn’t been tapped so there should be plenty of meat on the shell.

Square taper BB’s last for ages TBH.

Pretty much all frames are going to be boost now and unlikely to be in stock. Set up a stock alert on CRC for a few frames that take your fancy.

Wouldn’t do boost adaptors at the back due to chainline issues.

@poah

it hasn’t been tapped so there should be plenty of meat on the shell.

Exactly as I figured but what can you do if they won’t?!

Wouldn’t do boost adaptors at the back due to chainline issues.

Do they cause that many issues?

Nice looking hornet by the way 😉

Thankyou for that, has cleared some bits up certainly, appreciate the time

You’re welcome. Sorry if I got on a bit of a roll/rant 😂

Ha ha it’s allowed from time to time