Yay! Another ebike thread… 👍

More and more folks are getting ebikes now it seems. There’s one in my future somewhere I’m sure but essentially, I couldn’t afford one at the moment luckily.

I’d be more inclined in the future to look at the second-hand market but, is anyone going to risk the purchase of a second hand Eeb with no warranty when a new motor and perhaps new battery would likely set you back in excess of a grand or something?.(I have no idea what motors and batteries cost) I’m not sure I’d want to risk it.

You’ve got the bike itself, all the usual stuff that can go wrong, and then you’ve got the motor and battery. Very expensive if you end up with a dud one, and any one you buy is bound to have reduced run time, reduced life.

What will the second hand market look like for ebikes?

Are all these folks dropping 4-8k odd on the bikes essentially going to end up struggling to sell them when they eventually want an upgrade?

🤔

I think the cost of spares will come down along with the availability of the bikes on the market as pattern parts also start to get produced. Most of these bikes use similar motors so the risk is actually not much greater than buying a carbon frame that’s been stressed weirdly by someone or a bike with some forks that haven’t been serviced and go pop on first use.

Batteries seem to be £500-600 which yes, is a chunk of a risk on purchase.

It’s the same issue faced by any new “niche”. Fatbikes were the same a few years ago. Different standards and limited production runs mean inflated prices. Once a certain momentum builds up, parts become a bit more standardised, more available and prices reduce. Early adopters do so at the risk of losing out substantially in resale as newer models flood the market, eating residuals. So, they either bite the bullet or hang on to their purchases a bit longer.  Meanwhile,new buyers reap the reward.

I’m sure they’ll come up for sale in larger numbers as new stuff comes out.

Maybe they’ll put an e-bike category in the ‘new’ classifieds 😉

There are basically two motor units  the shimano and the bosch.  I suspect these will end up on the second hand market a well either as part of a knackered bike or as a motor unit.  so if you buy a decent condition bike and the motor fails you should be able to get another motor unit even if it means buying a complete cheap bike

the real issue is batteries as they do degrade over their lifetime and will remain expensive – but there will develop a service market in replacing duff cells in borked batteries.

Replacing battery cells should be pretty easy. Just a question of any software that needs resetting.

Motor units are pretty simple really. Have seen Shimano and Bosch units available from a dutch online place. Price wasnt too bad tbh.

I would hope the battery situation will be like electric cars were you can actually see the condition of the battery on the bike display. Try and do that with an IC engine when car buying!

The condition of motors will be harder to check but that is where a test ride comes in I guess.

the real issue is batteries as they do degrade over their lifetime and will remain expensive

They claim hundreds of charge cycles (Bosch guarantee them for 500 but say 1000 should be easily possible) before the capacity drops to maybe 80%. I suspect that apart from a very few that probably means they’ll never degrade within the life of the bike they’re attached to.

a) how many people will go out for a bike ride every day, for three years.

b) how many e-bikers will make very ride as close to the full range as possible (bearing in mind range anxiety on a 45lb bike).

How many e-bike will do 40,000-50,000 miles?

There are at least 4 motors;

Bosch, which has known bearing issues.

Brose/Specialized, which has known issues, belt failure for one.

Shimano, bearing issues.

Yamaha/Giant, probably not immune to issues but I haven’t looked at them too closely.

AFAIK, motors are available service exchange from all manufacturers, but they aren’t cheap.

Batteries are an outright purchase, again not cheap, but recelling is an option.

Who says motors aren’t cheap – I’ve had 2 free of charge (Bosch xc performance) and no quibbles now – I would say the ebike companies have this warranty thing licked – far superior to the likes of other warranty processes where you spend weeks arguing…

I think people will be quite surprised at how much a 4-5k eMTB will lose in value over 2+ years, especially if suspension bearings, shock, dropper post, forks, drivetrain, motor and battery all need servicing or replacing.

It’s ‘interesting’ I suppose, but I think there’s a lot of worry around new tech like this, but the reality is usually more boring.

How long do we expect bikes to last these days? 5 years, 7 years, 10 years? I know there will always be someone heading into battle on something older than half of the riders on a typical WC podium, but they’re the exception rather than the norm.

When Hybrid Cars and Electric Cars first arrived there were the usual horror stories about batteries dying after 3 years and costing more than the car was worth, but in reality they don’t. They typically lose 20-30% of their capacity in the first 3-5 years / 30k miles and then it levels out. E-Bikes are far less likely to be used as much as EVs, certainly not MTB E-Bikes.

Who says motors aren’t cheap – I’ve had 2 free of charge (Bosch xc performance) and no quibbles now – I would say the ebike companies have this warranty thing licked – far superior to the likes of other warranty processes where you spend weeks arguing…

And that’ll apply to the second or third owner a few years down the line?

Two dead motors makes me feel that buying second hand would be a terrible idea unless really cheap.

As of July 2018 all spesh bikes including e-bikes warranty is transferable for the first two years from date of original purchase, this includes motors and batteries

Taken directly from their website

If you’re the second, or later, owner of a Specialized or Roval product, you are eligible for a two-year warranty from the date of the original retail purchase.

More info here https://www.specialized.com/gb/en/warranty

Lapierre is a 5 year warranty but sadly not transferable.

However there are people starting to do aftermarket rebuilds now – I think there was a vid on another thread – from recollection costs were something like 120 for service to 250 for full monty rebuild (could be wrong but deffo no more than that)…

one local LBS chain tells me their sales are 50/50 normal vs e-bikes

i’ve been on the fence for a while, leaning to the “its for lazy people and posers” i’d consider one for long days out in locations that i dont know to learn my way around.  after my experiences this weekend at a “trail desination”. **** e-bikes. as a normal rider on undulating single width trails where you have to climb you get caught time and again e-bikers tailgating you on climbs . in the wilderness, it doesnt matter so much, but in that environment it was annoying.

i think cost an the stigma will stop them ‘taking over’, but als there will be a lot that dont get much use leading to a healthy secondhand market, with peple trying to flog their ‘only used 3 times’ bikes.

people who wont ride a normal mtb still wont ride an e-mtb.. how long it takes them to twig?

its a shame advertising money is forcing proper bike media to promote them

As of July 2018 all spesh bikes including e-bikes warranty is transferable for the first two years from date of original purchase, this includes motors and batteries

For clarity, that’s for bikes purchased after that date.

I don’t know the warranty on my Trek is transferable, but if I did sell it I’d help out the new owner if possible.

Unfortunately I think they are fairly short term disposable bikes with a  £1500 to £2000 buy in premium and very lean non confidence inspiring  warranty for it  (2 years for most) on the expensive motor and battery.Hopefully there will indeed be cheaper aftermarket services to rebuild/fix motors,controllers  and batteries but until then it’s surely a high risk venture  buying anything out of warranty .

I suspect that one way or another eBike owners are going to end up spending a lot more on their hobby than riders of non-e (or whatever we are supposed to call them) bikes. That may be partly why manufacturers are so keen on them of course, but either way it’s probably true and yes, I suspect depreciation may be a bit higher. The next push seems to be the “£3K eMTB” , which isn’t going to help those who dropped £5-£8K on earlier models either.

tbh i looked at this.

the bikes arnt that expensive for the kit you get. Its a high end MTB after all.

the worry i have is i dont know of a single owner that hasnt had to use the warranty. Look at the stick your BB gets then pop that in a motor with a lot more torque and unless ts easily serviceable its going to have issues.

I think they are great. But they are spoiling trail centers etc.

I suspect that one way or another eBike owners are going to end up spending a lot more on their hobby than riders of non-e (or whatever we are supposed to call them) bikes.

Agreed, this is one of the reasons I haven’t gone for an E mountain bike, as that is purely a hobby.

My ebike is used for commuting and saves me at least £120/month in Train/Car costs. So as a mode of transport, the additional costs make sense for me. As a pure hobby/fun bike, at the moment they don’t.

the bikes arnt that expensive for the kit you get. Its a high end MTB after all.

I agree with this I have two none ebikes with similar kit on to my ebike.

The ebike was the cheapest of the three.

they are spoiling trail centers

No idea as I don’t go to trail centers very often and if I did it’d be on a group ride so I’d ride a none ebike.

I suspect depreciation may be a bit higher.

Do people really care about this when buying a new bike though?

I mean really care enough to not buy a bike that they wanted?

I suspect that one way or another eBike owners are going to end up spending a lot more on their hobby than riders of non-e (or whatever we are supposed to call them) bikes.

I assume a significant amount of e-mountain-bike riders are the same people who bought bikes with XTR, hope brakes and pace forks in years gone by. At anything over about £2k (and especially over £3k) you can swap some of the bling bits for more functional stuff, save more than the cost of the motor and battery, and gain far more speed than those few grammes ever did.

And when you add up the cost of replacing XTR like for like for a few years it probably adds up far more than an e-bike!

You have an added layer of complexity with e bikes.

I suspect buying a second hand one will have the potential to be a very costly exercise should things go wrong.

We can all check for knackered BB’s, wheel bearings etc… But potential poor battery life (don’t believe any apps out there), imminent motor issues and intermittent electrical/electronic faults….. Sooner you than me.

Bikes just got a LOT more complex.

Think of being a home mechanics in the 80’s compared  opening the bonnet on a new car now and peering inside.

We can all check for knackered BB’s, wheel bearings etc… But potential poor battery life (don’t believe any apps out there), imminent motor issues and intermittent electrical/electronic faults…..

The Spech app gives a rundown of the motors health how far it’s been and how many charge cycles it has left.

I have no reason to not believe the results it gives as it seems to tie in with the results my Garmin has recorded.

Think of being a home mechanics in the 80’s compared  opening the bonnet on a new car now and peering inside.

…. which doesn’t seem to have slowed down the sale of new cars, or people willing to buy them second hand after a couple of years?

The Spech app gives a rundown of the motors health how far it’s been and how many charge cycles it has left.

That’s a prediction based on knowns. Mileage, charge cycles etc.

It takes no account of unknowns. Type of riding, exposure to the elements level of care and maintenance.

Given that you cannot ascertain these things relatively easily like you can on a non e bike then it’s a potentially expensive lottery.

I have an electronics/electrical background and I would think long and hard before buying a second hand e bike.

Its just a different level of complexity. One of the intrinsic beauties of a human powered bike is the simplicity. Suspension adds some but even then, its mechanical and you aren’t (in the main) dealing with unites not designed to be user serviceable.

I don’t see that changing anytime soon. If motors and batteries come down significantly (hugely) in price then that might change, along with a more modular/servicable approach to design. That won’t be for a very long time in my opinion though.

I’m not being anti e bike by the way. It’s just a clear part of the equation of buying a used e bike or even a new one if you intend holding into it for an extended period.

…. which doesn’t seem to have slowed down the sale of new cars, or people willing to buy them second hand after a couple of years?

Steady on champ, I’m not being anti e bike. Don’t be so defensive. If you search, you will see I’ve never made a negative post relating to e Bikes.

They are however not the Holy Grail, just like everything in life they have negatives as well as positives.

As long as you are aware of them and allow for them in potential purchases then that’s fine.

Its a drastic simplification to simply dismiss reality as inconsequential though.

As they (e Bikes) exist at this point of time you would be buying a second hand e bike that has the potential to carry a substantial repair cost with it if you are unlucky with the purchase. If you are prepared for that potential then it’s all good.

I’m not being anti e bike by the way

I didn’t think for one minute you were.

That’s a prediction based on knowns.

Which is as good or better than you’ll get with any second hand bike.

I’d not even buy a secondhand none ebike unless I’d know the owner TBH.

Which is as good or better than you’ll get with any second hand bike.

But with an extra layer of potential cost if you buy a pony. A substantial one at that. With far less ability to save money vis second hand/ DIY methods.

I’d not even buy a secondhand none ebike unless I’d know the owner TBH.

Not bought a brand new bike for many years, all from here or eBay/gumtree. but I’m not too bad with a spanner and some suspension jobs aside,I do all my own maintenance with the help help of this forum, YouTube and ready availability of new and used spares.

That’s not to invalidate the buying from a friend option though as I would rate that higher than app produced metrics on the electronics of an e bike and gives you a great idea of the mechanical worthiness too.👍

I’m ebike curious and demod a couple recently, having looked into the variety of options I came to the conclusion that manafacturer / dealer support would be vital for me. The mfrs seem to be very good with warranty claims on the motor/battery, so much so that I get the impression that they réalise that without it they would struggle to sell new bikes . I looked at a fair few S/h options (lots available, esp Spesh as people trade up to 2019 levos) but was put off by the large number being sold with ‘new motor fitted under warranty’ . I’d either go for a cheaper unit like a vitus or stump up for a spesh and enjoy the dealer support. For the mo I’d probably avoid 2nd hand.

Steady on champ, I’m not being anti e bike. Don’t be so defensive. If you search, you will see I’ve never made a negative post relating to e Bikes.

And I am not suggesting that you are. Just saying that increased complexity doesn’t put people off buying new and used cars, as it becomes the new “normal”

ebikes will become the same eventually. Not currently (for me at least) as I said earlier, which is why I use an ebike for transport rather than for “fun/hobby” riding, as currently that would be too much of a financial outlay/risk.

I suspect an awful lot of these are being bought as ” the new golf” and we may well see a glut of them on the market over the next couple of years.  I also so depreciation as being very high

And don’t forget the road tax, insurance and MOT when they are eventually properly regulated. 😉

And I am not suggesting that you are. Just saying that increased complexity doesn’t put people off buying new and used cars, as it becomes the new “normal”

For most used cars there are many options for spares.

Pattern parts.

New parts from specialist retailers selling below retail.

Second hand parts from cars being broken.

Reconditioned parts.

Do any of the above exist in any notable quantity for e Bikes both today or in the forseeable?

Hard to predict the future but I doubt many cost effective options such as the above will be around for some time.

Do any of the above exist in any notable quantity for e Bikes both today or in the forseeable?

steady on champ, don’t be so defensive 👍

As I’ve already said (twice) Ebikes are (for me) a mode of transport rather than a hobby, although that is not the case for the majority of ebike buyers.

due to the increased cost/risk it too expensive as a hobby for me, or too much of a risk at least. That will change in time I’m sure.

Defensive by stating a fact as I see it? Sorry if it came across that way, not my intention mate. Not being sarcastic by the way!

If the statement you quote is incorrect then I would genuinely like to know. Most importantly the op would as it relates to this thread directly.👍

The parts that hang off the bikes still have a value. Many e-bikes are afterall high end top spec bikes. I don’t think the motor and battery have a value second hand as the warranty is only 2 years (great confidence in a product).

I think that if you had the top spec specialized enduro and the top spec levo. The enduro would be worth more and be easier to sell because of the lack of battery. Untill you get a lifetime warranty thats transferrable on the battery and motor. The second hand market will not be there for e-bikes imo.

Get back under your canal bridge rydflat.

Not bought a brand new bike for many years, all from here or eBay/gumtree. but I’m not too bad with a spanner and some suspension jobs aside,I do all my own maintenance with the help help of this forum

You could just as easily bought a bike with  a creaky or worn below the seals CSU or an internally damaged shock that’d cost as much to replace as a battery.

I’ll just chop mine in when I want to swap it for a new one.

I don’t buy bikes because they’ll have a high resale value I buy them because that’s what I want to ride.

But as ever we’re all different.🙂

I don’t buy bikes because they’ll have a high resale value I buy them because that’s what I want to ride.

True but if I can’t afford a new one and the second-hand ones available are too risky to buy then I guess I won’t be having one at all and the person who dropped 5k on one a couple of years ago might struggle getting rid and raising funds for an upgrade…..maybe.. 🤔