Number 10 says Transport Bill will pave way for e-scooters

Number 10 has confirmed that the Transport Bill will pave the way for legislation on private e-scooters despite no specific mention of this in Prince Charles’s delivery of the Queen’s Speech.

A Government spokesperson from Number 10 told Zag Daily: “Safety will always be our top priority and our trials are helping us to better understand the benefits of properly regulated, safety-tested e-scooters and their impact on public space.

“While riding a privately owned e-scooter on public land is currently illegal, we are considering how best to design future regulations and our Transport Bill will help us to take the steps we need to make e-scooters safer and support innovation.”

Came to add a link, bikeiz have covered it too

E-scooter legislation to be included in Transport Bill, Government confirms

I’m conflicted on eScooters.

I don’t think in their current form they are safe – the combination of small wheels and poor roads makes for a high level of risk – and someone I know well broke 2 vertebra in his neck coming off one when it hit a pothole.

They are also used locally by scumbags as crime vehicles – and I’ve narrowly avoided getting mugged for my brompton by a group of 3-4 riders who came from nowhere and tried to block me in to make me stop. I couldn’t out ride them because they were the illegal / fast ones and it only stopped due to the good fortune of a police car coming the other way. The police didn’t slow down or stop but the scooter scum were up on the pavement and going the other way as soon as they saw the cops.

They are also used on pavements and parks where they shouldn’t be – even the licensed operators haven’t geofenced the scooters properly to prevent this.

I also think there’s a real issue where many of the riders are clueless about how to use the roads safely or how to avoid risk to other road users. Having some kind of mandated training seems like a CBT for mopeds is a no brainer.

BUT:

– if the scooters had bigger wheels / were safer AND
– Geo-fencing worked
– the police came down very hard on illegal scooters AND
– the riders did proper training on how to use the roads

… they are potentially going to help get people out of cars which can only be a good thing.

They are also used on pavements and parks where they shouldn’t be – even the licensed operators haven’t geofenced the bicycles properly to prevent this.

I also think there’s a real issue where many of the riders are clueless about how to use the roads safely or how to avoid risk to other road users. Having some kind of mandated training seems like a CBT for mopeds is a no brainer.

🙄

someone I know well broke 2 vertebra in his neck coming off one when it hit a pothole.

If you don’t want accidents, stay at home. But then deal with the massively increased hospitalisation, healthcare costs, and early deaths from a sedentary lifestyle.

I’m sorry your friend had an accident, but he could easily have been squashed on a zebra crossing or ridden a bike into a pothole and crashed that way.

Car drivers are quick enough to victim blame cyclists and it looks like you’re doing pretty much the same thing.

someone I know well broke 2 vertebra in his neck coming off one when it hit a pothole.

My bike went out from underneath me for no obvious reason I’ve ever been able to work out, at roughly walking speed. My left knee took the majority of the impact, but also my shoulder and the side of my face, giving me a nasty graze on my cheek, and only the fact that I was wearing a helmet, which took quite a hit on the peak saved me from probably a significant head injury. As it is, I’m now living with osteoarthritis in two places directly under the impact scar on my kneecap.
As far as scooters on pavements are concerned, the kids on bikes riding just as fast are as big a menace, and often there’s several riding together.

Save the finger-wagging and Pearl-clutching for the Daily Wail.

If it runs at 500W on the maximum continuous rated power test, the 250W output isn’t the ‘max’. So the EN tests for e-bikes would stop them. Motors can peak well over 250W but the ‘max continuous rated power’ test or labelling isn’t the same as peak output. Common that 350W 48V motors are reduced to 250W via a 36V rated system.

Perhaps, but that’s obviously not what is happening, as I said you can easily run down these bikes in an hour with a 500wh battery, so they are capable of putting out more than 250w at a steady rate over the hour. These bikes will handle going up hill at full pelt for an hour with ease.

Even changing from a 48v system to a 36v system does nothing to limit these machines to 250w.

If a add a 36v 7amp battery, i’d get 250w peak from it, if I add a 48v 5.5 amp battery I’d get 250w peak out of the battery. The power you can get out of the machines is determined by the volts and amps. You put more through than they can handle, they’ll still output more energy, they’ll just burn out quicker if they aren’t rated as such.

I’m not saying this is a bad thing, limiting it to 250w peak would be a bad thing and would make these machines seriously under-powered. Just saying that the 250w thing than most mention isn’t really a valid way to look at these machines. The power output of a motor is determined by the amps and volts you stick through it. All the continuous rating does is tell if the motor will handle the abuse you throw at it.(If indeed they are being truthful about the test, but as you’ve alluded to they aren’t, the 350w and the 250w are the same motor mostly.)

Never ceases to make me mentally facepalm when e-scooters raise negatives because scallies use them or they’re not ridden with perfect care and attention all the time. Obviously that’s the user not the vehicle. Scallies will rob you whether scooters exist or not. Would you be anti bike because some scallies ride bikes? They drive cars too?
While cars exist and continue to make urban environments so bad to live/be in I’ll never be anti anything that is a viable alternative.

I’d agree that they’re potentially sketchy things and the wheels are too small imho ..but I ride a Brompton, pretty much the same : ) Sketchy but portable.

I’m all for electric personal transport, looking at the switch to electric vehicles as a like for like combustion car to electric car is a bit short sighted.

We’ve actually got a chance to redesign the whole concept of personal transport with the switch over to electric and all of the vehicles should be considered when designing infrastructure over the next 20/30 years.

Needs a fundamental shift in attitudes though, but that’ll come with the next generation that grow up with all these different options available to them.

bike manufacturers need to chill out on their pricing a bit tbh mind!

I’m all for electric personal transport, looking at the switch to electric vehicles as a like for like combustion car to electric car is a bit short sighted.

We’ve actually got a chance to redesign the whole concept of personal transport with the switch over to electric and all of the vehicles should be considered when designing infrastructure over the next 20/30 years.

Needs a fundamental shift in attitudes though, but that’ll come with the next generation that grow up with all these different options available to them.

absolutely. the ability to use existing bike infastructure is a plus point for the short term though.

I am (obviously) a keen recreational cyclist, and without wanting to sound big headed have as a result a far greater fitness and riding skill than the average urban commuter who doesnt also ride for fun or competition.

For urban transport though, even I would take an escooter over a bike (e or not) any day of the week for a number of reasons. For the non cyclist, the arguments against the bike get stronger.

If my aim is to travel a few miles in an urban or suburban environment, on tarmac surface, flat or gentle hills, in “civilian” clothes without getting sweaty or rained on; while carrying up to a large backpack (40 litres?) worth of cargo; and then secure my vehicle against theft at my destination…

then an escooter would be my choice over any possible bicycle you can suggest.

There’s no way I’d get Mrs zip on a push bike but if they bring in residents parking where she parks for work I can almost imagine getting her on an e scooter.

If my aim is to travel a few miles in an urban or suburban environment, on tarmac surface, flat or gentle hills, in “civilian” clothes without getting sweaty or rained on; while carrying up to a large backpack (40 litres?) worth of cargo; and then secure my vehicle against theft at my destination…

I’d walk or use a Brompton. Or a hire bike in an urban setting.

How does a scooter stop you being rained on? 😉

@seosamh77 batteries will supply as many amps as demanded from them, the rating you are seeing is either the capacity (Ah = amp hours) or the current drawn by the motor. The only real restriction is the wire thickness.

@flaperon et al, I think the point he was making is that scooters are a lot more unstable than bikes and as such carry a higher risk due to the significantly smaller wheels. Even a Brompton is going to shrug off potholes that would topple a scooter. Anyone who has ever ridden a scooter should be well aware that where your weight is can be the difference between bumping over a pebble or flying over the bars.

squirrelking
Free Member

@seosamh77 batteries will supply as many amps as demanded from them, the rating you are seeing is either the capacity (Ah = amp hours) or the current drawn by the motor. The only real restriction is the wire thickness.

Yeah, current drawn by the motor is what I’m on about. it’s usually about a max of about 15 amps on these bikes(though I’m willing to bet some draw more) 15a x 36v = 540peak(or the range i was talking about yesterday due how batteries actually charge). Bit of googling tells you that, and the fact you can run down a 36v 500wh battery in about an hour easily enough if you push it. ie 500w / 36v = 14amps.

I’d walk or use a Brompton. Or a hire bike in an urban setting.

How does a scooter stop you being rained on? 😉

it doesnt stop the rain from above.
but its the water on the floor that gets you on a bike. Even full length guards you will still get your feet sprayed. £10 halfords clip ons arent much use in bad weather.
no guards, and only bone dry floors would I consider riding in if I needed to remain presentable at my destination.

Coat wise, on a bike you are fairly limited to a waist length jacket, cheap ones will be boil in the bag on a non-electric bike.
Your thighs will get more rain on them on a bike than stood vertical on a scooter.
A coat that covers the arse, or even knee length is practical on a scooter. Just avoid the beige trenchcoat look…

Surely the power output in any particular situation may be limited by the software. It won’t necessarily be the max that could be obtained from the hardware.

Eta – even if the rider is asking for max power.

Edited. Actually scrub that. Sears, whose video I posted and deleted now seems like he’s a bit of a dick.

greyspoke
Free Member
Surely the power output in any particular situation may be limited by the software. It won’t necessarily be the max that could be obtained from the hardware.

Eta – even if the rider is asking for max power.

Easy way to test a bike, is just find a very big steep hill and keep going up it till the battery runs out with minimal effort, time the ups only.

If it takes you 1h mins on a 500wh battery and you’ve got 50wh left, that’s you running at 450 an hour. So 450 / 36w = average of 12.5 amps..

Tis only a theory could probably do with some empirical evidence. I’ve only got a bafang, but I can directly decide amps per power level, so easy for me to see the effect of amps.

I’ve hired bikes though, equally as powerful as a bafang running at 15/18amps, imo.

Yep looked at myself and no issues present so I’ll crack on, scooter riders act like dicks in London, the scooters are unsuitable for the roads and a menace on pavements.

Sorry I had to reread that to check you were not a car driver moaning about effing cyclists!

There are dicks on bikes, in cars, e-scooters, and on mopeds. Doesn’t make everyone a dick, and I’d rather be close passed by an e-scooter than a car.

Scallies will rob you whether scooters exist or not. Would you be anti bike because some scallies ride bikes?

It used to be constantly in the news about groups of kids on mountain bikes riding on footpaths, mugging people from behind then clearing off at high speed. More recently they use motor scooters, smashing shop windows with hammers then tearing off, or else riding them onto footpaths and stealing phones, watches and stuff. Plus they wear full-face lids, so almost impossible to identify.
escooters are just another mode of transport. When I’m walking around town, I’m much more likely to be passed at some speed on the footpath by an adult on a bike than I am a kid on a scooter. I’m waiting for the inevitable to happen – some halfwit to come tearing up or down my road on the path on a bike, just as I’m pulling out of my front drive, and slam straight into the front of my car. It’s not possible to see anything on the path because I have hedges either side, a pedestrian can see my car edging out, but the cyclists are riding fast – a good ten/twelve mph, and would cause significant damage.

You pull out of the drive not only knowing you can’t see but you’re also the one causing the blind spot, a good legal argument might not go your way.

I’d rather be close passed by an e-scooter than a car.

Bit of whataboutery there, scooters are an an unnecessary hazard for pedestrians, cyclists and other road users. I don’t need another group of self-centred arseholes making the streets more dangerous.

As a regular cyclist into London I’m unlikely to be close passed by a car in a bike lane however poorly ridden scooters are a regular occurrence.

They also seem to be relatively dangerous, even before they start bursting into flames;

“Since 2019, PACTS is aware of a total of thirty-one deaths involving e-scooters, one in 2019, three in 2020, thirteen in 2021 and fourteen in 2022 (to early December). A register is available here (latest edition 7 December 2022). The youngest person who has died was a 12-year-old rider, the oldest rider was 74. Trial rental e-scooters have been involved in four incidents where someone has died, one relating to a 75-year-old moving a parked rental e-scooter. Twelve riders have died in single-vehicle collisions and one pedestrian has died having been struck by someone who was riding an e-scooter.”

They are the answer to a pointless question.

It’s not possible to see anything on the path because I have hedges either side, a pedestrian can see my car edging out, but the cyclists are riding fast – a good ten/twelve mph, and would cause significant damage.

That’s the sort of argument used by militant anti-cyclists in local rag papers. Any sort of car/bike collision “could cause significant damage to my car” usually followed up with: “and who’s going to pay since they don’t have insurance?!”
The cyclist could die or be seriously injured.
The car will have some scratched paint and a dent. 🙄

I’d suggest that if you’re pulling out of a driveway, across the pavement, and you can’t see them you need to get the hedge cut or have someone guiding you out.

Yes, there’s a secondary argument about bikes (or e-scooters) on pavements but it could just as easily be a mobility scooter, electric wheelchair, kid on roller skates etc.

How did this 7-month old thread get revived anyway?!
The legislation promised by the Government has, like all Government promises, been delayed so all DfT have done is go “oh yes, the trials will be extended for another 2 years”. Classic, kick the can down the road Government where they’re either incapable of doing anything or terrified of the backlash of legalising e-scooters…

I don’t assume e-scooters as something dangerous
hmm, maybe…
2021: 223 pedestrians injured, 63 seriously hurt.
64 cyclists injured in collisions with scooters
1,034 e-scooter riders or passengers injured, including 9 killed – 28 people suffered a serious head injury, 32 sustained a fractured lower leg, ankle or foot, and three endured a broken neck or back

It would be nice to see “brakes” inn the specifiication.

I think a 20mph max would be better for both e-bikes and scooters, it would avoid a speed differential between motor vehicles in ever more common 20mph zones. Being overtaken is how many people get hurt/killed. No justification for overtaking an e-bike/scooter in a 20mph zone then.

Seen a few of these spanking it down the Bristol to Bath cycle path – including a group of about 4 lads on them the other week:

Kaabo Wolf Warrior 11 PRO Electric Scooter

80km/h!! Fair startles you when a couple of those **** come flying past at 50mph.

some halfwit to come tearing up or down my road on the path on a bike, just as I’m pulling out of my front drive, and slam straight into the front of my car. It’s not possible to see anything on the path because I have hedges either side, a pedestrian can see my car edging out, but the cyclists are riding fast – a good ten/twelve mph, and would cause significant damage.

Cut your hedge then?

Seen a few of these spanking it down the Bristol to Bath cycle path – including a group of about 4 lads on them the other week:

Kaabo Wolf Warrior 11 PRO Electric Scooter

80km/h!! Fair startles you when a couple of those **** come flying past at 50mph.

But they’re nothing but illegal, and still will be once whatever legislation is finalised.